When did the £3 'outer Birmingham' daysaver finish ?
Quote from: metrocity on May 23, 2022, 04:58:40 PMWhen did the £3 'outer Birmingham' daysaver finish ?
I wasn't aware that it has been discontinued, though now I look it is no longer shown on the NXBus website.
Only last week, some bloke was having an argument with a driver on the 2 as he had boarded at Wake Green Road and tried to get a £3 daysaver. The driver was having none of it though, despite this bloke claiming "I bought one from here yesterday".
I've not seen any official announcement or publicity about this.
Quote from: Stu on May 23, 2022, 06:45:49 PMI wasn't aware that it has been discontinued, though now I look it is no longer shown on the NXBus website.
Only last week, some bloke was having an argument with a driver on the 2 as he had boarded at Wake Green Road and tried to get a £3 daysaver. The driver was having none of it though, despite this bloke claiming "I bought one from here yesterday".
I've not seen any official announcement or publicity about this.
I've seen someone try and purchase one in the City Centre once on the 95. Driver explained to them that it didn't start to Fox and Goose stop.
I think it must be in the last week or 2, though I did notice if you look at other offers on the NX website they say they can withdraw these things "without notice" in the terms and conditions.
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/offers/kids-travel-for-1-at-weekends-and-off-peak
Quote from: Stu on May 23, 2022, 06:45:49 PMI wasn't aware that it has been discontinued, though now I look it is no longer shown on the NXBus website.
Only last week, some bloke was having an argument with a driver on the 2 as he had boarded at Wake Green Road and tried to get a £3 daysaver. The driver was having none of it though, despite this bloke claiming "I bought one from here yesterday".
I've not seen any official announcement or publicity about this.
A shame the driver didn't have the skills or decency to maybe explain that that particular ticket was no longer available. Or that it had finished that day for example. Or if it had been discontinued a while back, that it could have been sold in error the day before.
Quote from: Gareth on May 23, 2022, 07:03:17 PMA shame the driver didn't have the skills or decency to maybe explain that that particular ticket was no longer available. Or that it had finished that day for example. Or if it had been discontinued a while back, that it could have been sold in error the day before.
It wouldn't have been sold in error. What'll often happen is the company will remove the option on the ticket machines. They'll probably then put an A4 piece of paper up in the depot on a notice board announcing if a ticket is no longer valid/issued. Most drivers probably wouldn't have a clue as is often the case.
Quote from: Gareth on May 23, 2022, 07:03:17 PMA shame the driver didn't have the skills or decency to maybe explain that that particular ticket was no longer available. Or that it had finished that day for example. Or if it had been discontinued a while back, that it could have been sold in error the day before.
I couldn't hear all the exchange between that passenger and the driver unfortunately, but the gist I was getting was that the ticket was available but couldn't be bought until the bus (the 2) crossed the Outer Circle route (at the Swanshurst Lane/Coldbath Road stop). As this passenger had boarded at Wake Green Road, they should have paid for a £4 daysaver.
Some drivers might have just waited until passing that point and then just issued the ticket and be done with it, this driver was rightly standing their ground though, as far as I could work out.
The exchange was still going on when I disembarked at Billesley Common. :laugh: So I have no idea how this was concluded.
Quote from: 2206 on May 23, 2022, 06:50:04 PMI think it must be in the last week or 2, though I did notice if you look at other offers on the NX website they say they can withdraw these things "without notice" in the terms and conditions.
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/offers/kids-travel-for-1-at-weekends-and-off-peak
That is true, but for something like a local area Daysaver, which presumably many people use and may rely on, it would have been more appropriate to give passengers some notice and to publicise its withdrawal.
Yes I think if a ticket is no longer available anymore for good communication it would make sense for them to at least put up a passenger notice on the buses and on the website stating the ticket has now been withdrawn.
Does anybody know why the local daysaver has been discontinued? Was it not popular enough?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the outer boundary was the 11 route & the inner boundary was the 8 route?
Was there much traffic within those points, or did most people want to go in & out of city anyway?
To be honest, I would have 'fixed' the issue with the Sandwell boundary, where you can't go east of the M5, despite still being in Sandwell, until you get past Smethwick or Bearwood, that people used to complain about!
It was anywhere OUTSIDE the outer circle
Quote from: Westy on May 23, 2022, 11:15:35 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong, but the outer boundary was the 11 route & the inner boundary was the 8 route?
Was there much traffic within those points, or did most people want to go in & out of city anyway?
To be honest, I would have 'fixed' the issue with the Sandwell boundary, where you can't go east of the M5, despite still being in Sandwell, until you get past Smethwick or Bearwood, that people used to complain about!
Outside the Outer Circle.
Certainly on the X12, 94/95 and other routes not everyone wants goes to the City Centre. For those who just wanted to use the 11 for instance it was just £3 and covered the full route. Ticket only valid after 9.30.
Not valid past Sheldon into Solihull/Airport or to Coleshill going by the map.
Reason for the end of the offer could be increased operating costs, I guess.
Quote from: 2206 on May 23, 2022, 07:47:07 PMYes I think if a ticket is no longer available anymore for good communication it would make sense for them to at least put up a passenger notice on the buses and on the website stating the ticket has now been withdrawn.
You would think wouldn't you? At the same time the Evening Saver 'disappeared' again with absolutely no notice.
I tweeted them asking about it and got a very curt 'the ticket is discontinued'
When I queried the lack of publicity I was informed it 'would appear on the website later today'
NX don't give a monkeys about customers at the moment, one can only assume the Stagecoach fiasco has left them absolutely on their backsides judging by some of the knee jerk decisions being thrown about by those running the operation.
The rate of decline is alarming.
I did wonder about these tickets, tried to get an evening saver on the app on Friday but it had disappeared. Nothing on the website about these being discontinued.
To be honest, £4 still ain't bad for a multi trip ticket.
Maybe something more could be made of the single journey thing though. A single on the app is valid for half an hour, which I have previously made use of by having to make a single journey that involved 2 buses. If that was made into an hour similar to the TfL bus fares it would benefit people more, as a lot of people do just make such single "journeys" out of multiple buses
Quote from: Kevin on May 25, 2022, 11:21:15 AMI did wonder about these tickets, tried to get an evening saver on the app on Friday but it had disappeared. Nothing on the website about these being discontinued.
To be honest, £4 still ain't bad for a multi trip ticket.
Maybe something more could be made of the single journey thing though. A single on the app is valid for half an hour, which I have previously made use of by having to make a single journey that involved 2 buses. If that was made into an hour similar to the TfL bus fares it would benefit people more, as a lot of people do just make such single "journeys" out of multiple buses
Wasn't the old Pte 'Thrufare' similar?
QuoteI did wonder about these tickets, tried to get an evening saver on the app on Friday but it had disappeared. Nothing on the website about these being discontinued.
To be honest, £4 still ain't bad for a multi trip ticket.
Maybe something more could be made of the single journey thing though. A single on the app is valid for half an hour, which I have previously made use of by having to make a single journey that involved 2 buses. If that was made into an hour similar to the TfL bus fares it would benefit people more, as a lot of people do just make such single "journeys" out of multiple buses
Very few people make a journey by bus, but do not go back later. The thrufare that was 50p and valid for an hour when it was launched in the west midlands was before day tickets were available
Quote from: Tony on May 25, 2022, 12:23:38 PMVery few people make a journey by bus, but do not go back later. The thrufare that was 50p and valid for an hour when it was launched in the west midlands was before day tickets were available
I beg to differ on the "very few" bit to an extent. I've done it myself numerous times & I know a number of people who do similar for an evening out (20ish minute bus into town and use the same single on the app to get a Broad St bus a few stops, then have to get a taxi home because lol no night buses). Obviously it's not going to be loads and loads of people and anecdotes do not make data etc... but there is a genuine use for it and people do use it that way, regardless of how "few" people do it.
Also, obviously this isn't London where such practice is more commonplace because the 1 hour limit is the standard fare for buses full stop.
It is very few out of the million passengers a day, London's day ticket is 4.95 as well which makes the 1.65 hop more attractive for those doing a return journey
Where does NX explain in their terms and conditions of travel you can use a Single Ticket on any number of buses within 30 mins of being issued?
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/help-information/ticket-terms-conditions
Does this extend to paper tickets too - paid with cash or Swift PAYG?
You simply present the paper ticket, as with mTicket to the driver, where the driver on seeing it is a single ticket, will want to inspect the time of issue on the ticket, where if issued with within 30 mins - the driver will allow you to board the bus?
Quote from: wulfrun on May 27, 2022, 02:31:50 PMWhere does NX explain in their terms and conditions of travel you can use a Single Ticket on any number of buses within 30 mins of being issued?
https://nxbus.co.uk/west-midlands/help-information/ticket-terms-conditions
Does this extend to paper tickets too - paid with cash or Swift PAYG?
You simply present the paper ticket, as with mTicket to the driver, where the driver on seeing it is a single ticket, will want to inspect the time of issue on the ticket, where if issued with within 30 mins - the driver will allow you to board the bus?
I've never heard of that. I think a single ticket is valid for a single journey only.
Quote from: 2206 on May 27, 2022, 02:38:41 PMnever heard of that. I think a single ticket is valid for a single journey only.
Sorry
@2206, I was continuing on from what
@Kevin was saying above (https://wmbusphotos.com/forum/index.php?topic=6241.msg301490#msg301490) about singles purchased on mTicket. I too have not heard you can use Singles on more than one journey within 30 mins. Hence I asked the question.
Singles on Mticket have to be done like that because without a time limit they could be used all day
Quote from: Tony on May 27, 2022, 03:54:20 PMSingles on Mticket have to be done like that because without a time limit they could be used all day
So what you are saying Tony is that because mTickets are not issued or identified by the ticket machine, they have to be presented to the driver in the same was as a paper ticket, where a timer is required on the mTicket to provide a "window of opportunity" to give the user time to activate their ticket before boarding the bus, before the ticket auto expires, to prevent reuse.
Therefore enabling customers to abuse this protocol to their advantage, by using the ticket on as many journeys they require within this 30 min "window of opportunity" – which WMT Ltd accepts as valid practice?
A practice that is not permitted if the customer is using other WMT Ltd Single ticket / fare issued – when purchased using a system that works as intended.
It is not the customer's fault that WMT Ltd can't install adequate equipment on their vehicles to validate tickets issued by the company for travel.
Why should customers be penalised for paying by cash / Swift PAYG / Swift Go - because those systems work as intended?
Customers purchasing single fares issued as a paper ticket; should be able to present the same ticket for use on any number of WMT Ltd services within 30 mins of the time stamped on the ticket issued.
With Swift Go, operators can define the rules of travel. Where, unlike mTicket, each time the user taps in with Swift Go, the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded is recorded, leaving a unique anonymous digital tail across the network, that helps transport planners identify common travel patterns to design a bus network that meets customer requirements.
mTickets are incapable of collecting this vital information. Unless WMT Ltd are not informing mTicket users the app is "spyware" using their device's GPS/network IP, to track the user's every movement – perhaps another reason the user is told to keep the device on at all times?
If tapping in using Swift Go on NXWM services, NXWM can set a rule that charges a capped fare of £2.40 for all tap ins within the first 30 mins of use for that day. Thereafter, as done now, the customer is capped at Day Saver rate, capped further at 3 and 5 days if making the same journey for the number of days per week, paid in arrears, every Sunday.
Where as mTicket forces the customer to commit to pay for a ticket in advance, for journeys the user may not even make, or be forced to pay more for an additional ticket, due to an unforeseen need to travel on other days in the week, or beyond the required Low Fare Zone or a need to use another operator.
With Swift Go, because you pay in arrears, your fare is auto upgraded depending on your next move. From £3 to £4 if you tap in outside the initial NXWM Low Fare Zone. If an additional operator is required to the normal operator of choice, no problems, the normal operator's day cap (NXWM LFZ Walsall £3) is auto upgraded to an nBus equivalent (nBus Walsall £3.20) for the day or 3/5 days capped, which ever is the cheapest. Whereas the user is forced to pay an additional fare when using NXWM mTicket app or Diamond mTicket app, as they have already committed to purchasing the wrong ticket, or be charged separate fares for each operator if tapping in with a Bank Card.
To make an assumption that not many people make more than one journey paying an NXWM mTicket Single – can only be deduced by comparing the number of mTicket sales against all ticket sales made on a particular day.
Where at a guess, I assume mTickets are not the bulk purchase, and of those very few buy mTicket Singles. Therefore by law of averages one can claim not many people use mTicket Singles, multiple times, compared to other tickets sold - but as for the exact figure NXWM don't actually know, because that data is not recorded.
Unlike
Swift Go (https://www.tfwm.org.uk/swift-and-tickets/swift-go/), which records the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded, each time the card is tapped in - using an inert plastic card that fits easily into purse/wallet/back pocket, which does not need the user to spend £100+ on an electronic device to install the mTicket app on, which also requires an external power supply to ensure the ticket remains valid, or the user faces a criminal charge for fare evasion. The Swift customer can view their travel log and current fare (to pay from their Swift Account, via a number of payment methods on the coming Sunday) at anytime, when accessing their
account online (https://my.swiftcard.org.uk/ssp/swift/) or the
TfWM app (https://www.tfwm.org.uk/who-we-are/our-apps/).
Why does WMT Ltd still encourage customers to use the inferior mTicket app that provides loop holes that customers can exploit to the company's detriment, by offering only the cheapest tickets on the mTicket platform, like a carrot to lure people to download the app (prime use being to harvest customer personal details?), instead of promoting the full gamut of WMT Ltd fares on Swift, a platform that provides greater flexibility for both customer and operator, with no loopholes that customers can exploit, as well as helping planners know how users are accessing the network, the fares being used, and help reduce fare evasion - with a need to validate the Swift card on a pad each time the user boards a bus?
Especially when you consider membership to the WM Bus Alliance includes a promise from the operator to support the Swift platform.
Can you buy an nbus ticket onboard a NXWM bus and pay by card? I've been meaning to ask this question.
Quote from: MW on May 30, 2022, 10:41:30 PMCan you buy an nbus ticket onboard a NXWM bus and pay by card? I've been meaning to ask this question.
Be surprised if you could!
You don't get a paper ticket, if you pay by contactless, but you do, if you use Swift Paygo, as I've bought both Nx Daysaver & the Nbus equivalent off Nx.
Quote from: MW on May 30, 2022, 10:41:30 PMCan you buy an nbus ticket onboard a NXWM bus and pay by card? I've been meaning to ask this question.
No don't think so.
I think the way it works is one scan it charges a single fare, second scan and more it charges capped at £4 all day. And caps it at £11.50 for 3 days and £15 for 7 days. Adult NX day ticket only of course as well.
Quote from: wulfrun on May 30, 2022, 10:14:37 PMSo what you are saying Tony is that because mTickets are not issued or identified by the ticket machine, they have to be presented to the driver in the same was as a paper ticket, where a timer is required on the mTicket to provide a "window of opportunity" to give the user time to activate their ticket before boarding the bus, before the ticket auto expires, to prevent reuse.
Therefore enabling customers to abuse this protocol to their advantage, by using the ticket on as many journeys they require within this 30 min "window of opportunity" – which WMT Ltd accepts as valid practice?
A practice that is not permitted if the customer is using other WMT Ltd Single ticket / fare issued – when purchased using a system that works as intended.
It is not the customer's fault that WMT Ltd can't install adequate equipment on their vehicles to validate tickets issued by the company for travel.
Why should customers be penalised for paying by cash / Swift PAYG / Swift Go - because those systems work as intended?
Customers purchasing single fares issued as a paper ticket; should be able to present the same ticket for use on any number of WMT Ltd services within 30 mins of the time stamped on the ticket issued.
With Swift Go, operators can define the rules of travel. Where, unlike mTicket, each time the user taps in with Swift Go, the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded is recorded, leaving a unique anonymous digital tail across the network, that helps transport planners identify common travel patterns to design a bus network that meets customer requirements.
mTickets are incapable of collecting this vital information. Unless WMT Ltd are not informing mTicket users the app is "spyware" using their device's GPS/network IP, to track the user's every movement – perhaps another reason the user is told to keep the device on at all times?
If tapping in using Swift Go on NXWM services, NXWM can set a rule that charges a capped fare of £2.40 for all tap ins within the first 30 mins of use for that day. Thereafter, as done now, the customer is capped at Day Saver rate, capped further at 3 and 5 days if making the same journey for the number of days per week, paid in arrears, every Sunday.
Where as mTicket forces the customer to commit to pay for a ticket in advance, for journeys the user may not even make, or be forced to pay more for an additional ticket, due to an unforeseen need to travel on other days in the week, or beyond the required Low Fare Zone or a need to use another operator.
With Swift Go, because you pay in arrears, your fare is auto upgraded depending on your next move. From £3 to £4 if you tap in outside the initial NXWM Low Fare Zone. If an additional operator is required to the normal operator of choice, no problems, the normal operator's day cap (NXWM LFZ Walsall £3) is auto upgraded to an nBus equivalent (nBus Walsall £3.20) for the day or 3/5 days capped, which ever is the cheapest. Whereas the user is forced to pay an additional fare when using NXWM mTicket app or Diamond mTicket app, as they have already committed to purchasing the wrong ticket, or be charged separate fares for each operator if tapping in with a Bank Card.
To make an assumption that not many people make more than one journey paying an NXWM mTicket Single – can only be deduced by comparing the number of mTicket sales against all ticket sales made on a particular day.
Where at a guess, I assume mTickets are not the bulk purchase, and of those very few buy mTicket Singles. Therefore by law of averages one can claim not many people use mTicket Singles, multiple times, compared to other tickets sold - but as for the exact figure NXWM don't actually know, because that data is not recorded.
Unlike Swift Go (https://www.tfwm.org.uk/swift-and-tickets/swift-go/), which records the time, stop, route and vehicle boarded, each time the card is tapped in - using an inert plastic card that fits easily into purse/wallet/back pocket, which does not need the user to spend £100+ on an electronic device to install the mTicket app on, which also requires an external power supply to ensure the ticket remains valid, or the user faces a criminal charge for fare evasion. The Swift customer can view their travel log and current fare (to pay from their Swift Account, via a number of payment methods on the coming Sunday) at anytime, when accessing their account online (https://my.swiftcard.org.uk/ssp/swift/) or the TfWM app (https://www.tfwm.org.uk/who-we-are/our-apps/).
Why does WMT Ltd still encourage customers to use the inferior mTicket app that provides loop holes that customers can exploit to the company's detriment, by offering only the cheapest tickets on the mTicket platform, like a carrot to lure people to download the app (prime use being to harvest customer personal details?), instead of promoting the full gamut of WMT Ltd fares on Swift, a platform that provides greater flexibility for both customer and operator, with no loopholes that customers can exploit, as well as helping planners know how users are accessing the network, the fares being used, and help reduce fare evasion - with a need to validate the Swift card on a pad each time the user boards a bus?
Especially when you consider membership to the WM Bus Alliance includes a promise from the operator to support the Swift platform.
You'll never last on here!
Quote from: andy41 on June 01, 2022, 05:16:23 PMYou'll never last on here!
As I strongly suspect it could very well be our old friend from Blackheath, I certainly hope not.
Quote from: wulfrun on May 30, 2022, 10:14:37 PMSo what you are saying Tony is that because mTickets are not issued or identified by the ticket machine, they have to be presented to the driver in the same was as a paper ticket, where a timer is required on the mTicket to provide a "window of opportunity" to give the user time to activate their ticket before boarding the bus, before the ticket auto expires, to prevent reuse.
Therefore enabling customers to abuse this protocol to their advantage, by using the ticket on as many journeys they require within this 30 min "window of opportunity".....
No doubt NXWM has done a full risk assessment on this - how far are you going to get in 30 mins in the built up area (eg Wolverhampton), fella?? Presumably they have determined the potential losses through that method are outweighed by the advantages.
Quote from: Gareth on June 01, 2022, 05:18:44 PMAs I strongly suspect it could very well be our old friend from Blackheath, I certainly hope not.
He makes some very valid points
Quote from: Gareth on June 01, 2022, 05:18:44 PMAs I strongly suspect it could very well be our old friend from Blackheath, I certainly hope not.
No it is not.