After the surprise by NXWM to close what I thought was a solid group purchase, NX Dundee, wonder what is in store for NX main business here in the West Midlands, outside of Brum where I thing bus use is still quite high. In Wolverhampton where I live u c many buses running mostly empty, I realise with Comvid but even before lock down buses here where struggling. Routes like the 1 & 59 which In there day would struggle to cope with double deckers now are running around with loads that minibuses could cope with, there is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years.
Quote from: woody38 on December 31, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
After the surprise by NXWM to close what I thought was a solid group purchase, NX Dundee, wonder what is in store for NX main business here in the West Midlands, outside of Brum where I thing bus use is still quite high. In Wolverhampton where I live u c many buses running mostly empty, I realise with Comvid but even before lock down buses here where struggling. Routes like the 1 & 59 which In there day would struggle to cope with double deckers now are running around with loads that minibuses could cope with, there is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years.
NX did not close NX Dundee, it sold it as an operation and have leased some of the buses which means NX will still get a regular income from Dundee
Quote from: woody38 on December 31, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
After the surprise by NXWM to close what I thought was a solid group purchase, NX Dundee, wonder what is in store for NX main business here in the West Midlands, outside of Brum where I thing bus use is still quite high. In Wolverhampton where I live u c many buses running mostly empty, I realise with Comvid but even before lock down buses here where struggling. Routes like the 1 & 59 which In there day would struggle to cope with double deckers now are running around with loads that minibuses could cope with, there is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years.
The Dundee operation is not closing, it has just been sold onto another operator.
NXWM closed Bordesley in October so maybe it could close other depots, but by doing so would mean that it would be difficult to serve the whole of the West Midlands area that it does at the moment.
"There is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years" - NXWM is a business so it will only invest in vehicles for the routes that make the most money, it then cascades the older vehicles that the new ones have replaced onto the routes that don't make so much money and so on, until eventually the oldest buses are withdrawn.
Could it be that most of the routes in Wolverhampton that you see are basket cases for making money so would never get new buses, therefore using older vehicles allows those routes to continue to operate, if NXWM was forced to use new vehicles the service would probably be reduced or cease altogether?
The introduction of low emission zones also affect whereabouts newer buses are used. If Wolverhampton Council could make the case for a low emission zone in the city, then the bus operators would have to use vehicles that are newer and have lower emissions. However be careful what you wish for, an 18 year old bus operating a service is better than no bus at all.
Quote from: Ian Hardy on December 31, 2020, 09:34:20 PM
If Wolverhampton Council could make the case for a low emission zone in the city, then the bus operators would have to use vehicles that are newer and have lower emissions.
Doesn't necessarily mean newer vehicles as 4276 - 4291 can operate into Birmingham City Centre as they've been upgraded. And these are 19 years old.
Quote from: Ian Hardy on December 31, 2020, 09:34:20 PM
Could it be that most of the routes in Wolverhampton that you see are basket cases for making money so would never get new buses
I'm not familiar with these routes, but I believe one of the routes mentioned had new hybrids in 2013. So they won't be 18 or 19 year old buses either. As well as Platinum 8/X8 and 529 routes.
Quote from: Steve3229vp on December 31, 2020, 09:31:35 PM
NX did close NX Dundee, it sold it as an operation and have leased some of the buses which means NX will still get a regular income from Dundee
I think that you mean NX did NOT close NX Dundee?
Quote from: Ian Hardy on December 31, 2020, 09:52:29 PM
I think that you mean NX did NOT close NX Dundee?
You're correct, my mistake, now corrected
Quote from: woody38 on December 31, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
After the surprise by NXWM to close what I thought was a solid group purchase, NX Dundee, wonder what is in store for NX main business here in the West Midlands, outside of Brum where I thing bus use is still quite high. In Wolverhampton where I live u c many buses running mostly empty, I realise with Comvid but even before lock down buses here where struggling. Routes like the 1 & 59 which In there day would struggle to cope with double deckers now are running around with loads that minibuses could cope with, there is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years.
I'm not sure woody38 why you think there has been no investment in new buses in Wolverhampton for 18 / 19 years. The current PL allocation includes approx 145 buses less than 10 years old, as follows
70 x 2011 / 2012 61 and 12 plate Volvo B7 Wright Eclipses 2001 - 2029, 2059 - 2093, 2136 - 2142 - some branded for routes 2, 3/4, 5 and 6.
10 X 2014 64 plate Enviro 200s 845 - 854
30 x 61 /13 plate Enviro 400 (Hybrid) double deckers 5401 - 5430 (PL along with BC were the first NX depots to be allocated hybrids with PL's to route 1
36 x 2016 / 17 16 / 66 plate Enviro 400 MMCs 6759 - 6795 - some branded for routes 529, X8
Quote from: fleetline6477 on December 31, 2020, 10:37:23 PM
I'm not sure woody38 why you think there has been no investment in new buses in Wolverhampton for 18 / 19 years. The current PL allocation includes approx 145 buses less than 10 years old, as follows
70 x 2011 / 2012 61 and 12 plate Volvo B7 Wright Eclipses 2001 - 2029, 2059 - 2093, 2136 - 2142 - some branded for routes 2, 3/4, 5 and 6.
10 X 2014 64 plate Enviro 200s 845 - 854
30 x 61 /13 plate Enviro 400 (Hybrid) double deckers 5401 - 5430 (PL along with BC were the first NX depots to be allocated hybrids with PL's to route 1
36 x 2016 / 17 16 / 66 plate Enviro 400 MMCs 6759 - 6795 - some branded for routes 529, X8
And about 10x 2013 Enviro 400
Quote from: BH2004 on December 31, 2020, 10:40:44 PM
And about 10x 2013 Enviro 400
3 streetlites 65 reg from moved from dundee
There has been investment in new buses in Wolverhampton, but as I said routes like the 59 used to be prime bus routes but Wolves Town centre does not seem the popular destination it once & from the amount of empty buses I c going into the town this had started before COVID, wondered how much profit NX make from there Wolverhampton depot.
Quote from: woody38 on January 01, 2021, 10:10:30 AM
There has been investment in new buses in Wolverhampton, but as I said routes like the 59 used to be prime bus routes but Wolves Town centre
If that route uses older buses, not everyone can have new buses. It will probably see some sort of newer buses/upgrade at some point eventually. Just not at the minute.
Quote from: 2206 on January 01, 2021, 10:17:40 AM
If that route uses older buses, not everyone can have new buses. It will probably see some sort of newer buses/upgrade at some point eventually. Just not at the minute.
Because it is not worth making the entire fleet 'Euro 6' as there is a possibility of around 200 new buses in 2021 and Wolverhampton's AQPS specifies that from Monday 75% of journies must be operated by Euro 6 buses it makes sense for Wolverhampton to have some of the none converted buses.
Quote from: woody38 on January 01, 2021, 10:10:30 AM
There has been investment in new buses in Wolverhampton, but as I said routes like the 59 used to be prime bus routes but Wolves Town centre does not seem the popular destination it once & from the amount of empty buses I c going into the town this had started before COVID, wondered how much profit NX make from there Wolverhampton depot.
Your original post woody38 finishes with the words
there is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years
I assume that you meant vehicles as you mentioned buses rather than bus routes.
Quote from: woody38 on December 31, 2020, 08:30:13 PM
After the surprise by NXWM to close what I thought was a solid group purchase, NX Dundee, wonder what is in store for NX main business here in the West Midlands, outside of Brum where I thing bus use is still quite high. In Wolverhampton where I live u c many buses running mostly empty, I realise with Comvid but even before lock down buses here where struggling. Routes like the 1 & 59 which In there day would struggle to cope with double deckers now are running around with loads that minibuses could cope with, there is no investment in new buses in the area some are approaching 18 or 19 years.
Selling Wolverhampton would make no sense as NXs dominance would start to break-up and their operations may start to become less popular. The only place that could (but I highly doubt will) be sold off is Coventry because it's largely detached from the rest of the West Midlands and Stagecoach have experience of running bus routes in the area.
On the contrary, I think it is more likely that NX will be opening new depots.
Certainly a new depot is already lined up to replace the current Perry Barr site.
And I'm pretty sure that NX are already lining up a new site to replace the Birmingham Central garage, some rumours have suggested this might be replaced with two smaller garages.
Would it be any cheaper in the long run to build 'super depots', depending on the area, to replace 2 or more depots?
For example, maybe somewhere inbetween Wolves & Walsall, to replace those 2 depots?
Must admit I thought Dundee was 'out of the way' for 'normal' NX operations, bearing in mind other companies have been bought & sold on I think in the 90's.
North East & London spring to mind.
Quote from: bususer28 on January 01, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
Selling Wolverhampton would make no sense as NXs dominance would start to break-up and their operations may start to become less popular. The only place that could (but I highly doubt will) be sold off is Coventry because it's largely detached from the rest of the West Midlands and Stagecoach have experience of running bus routes in the area.
I did say in my original post about selling depots, selling NX Dundee was a shock to me @ set my mind thinking about weather NX is in such a good shape as they make out.
Quote from: Westy on January 01, 2021, 12:09:52 PM
Would it be any cheaper in the long run to build 'super depots', depending on the area, to replace 2 or more depots?
For example, maybe somewhere inbetween Wolves & Walsall, to replace those 2 depots?
If there's nothing wrong with the existing depots, I doubt it would be worth the cost.
In the case of Perry Barr and Birmingham Central, NX's hand has been forced by way of compulsory purchase orders being issued.
What NX decide next depends on strategic considerations. Certainly BCs routes are mostly in south-west Birmingham, with some in east Birmingham. So in that case it would make some sense to replace BC with two new garages, that wouldn't need to be as big, unless NX were planning to substantially increase the number of vehicles in operation.
In my opinion a site in Longbridge or Northfield would be an ideal base for the Harborne, University, Bristol Road and Pershore Road services.
Quote from: Stu on January 01, 2021, 12:26:30 PM
If there's nothing wrong with the existing depots, I doubt it would be worth the cost.
In the case of Perry Barr and Birmingham Central, NX's hand has been forced by way of compulsory purchase orders being issued.
What NX decide next depends on strategic considerations. Certainly BCs routes are mostly in south-west Birmingham, with some in east Birmingham. So in that case it would make some sense to replace BC with two new garages, that wouldn't need to be as big, unless NX were planning to substantially increase the number of vehicles in operation.
In my opinion a site in Longbridge or Northfield would be an ideal base for the Harborne, University, Bristol Road and Pershore Road services.
Shame Lea Hall or Washwood Heath was shut then.
Quote from: Westy on January 01, 2021, 12:53:48 PM
Shame Lea Hall or Washwood Heath was shut then.
They were expensive and designed for 80 years ago, much better to have new garages
Quote from: Tony on January 01, 2021, 12:59:41 PM
They were expensive and designed for 80 years ago, much better to have new garages
I remember at the time that Washwood Heath was subject to noise abetment orders which limited some of the operating time. How true was that?
Quote from: ellspurs on January 01, 2021, 01:01:41 PM
I remember at the time that Washwood Heath was subject to noise abetment orders which limited some of the operating time. How true was that?
It was Quinton that had all the complaints about noise. I don't know of any issues like that at Washwood Heath.
There is a large piece of land, currently a farm I think, opposite Sainsbury's at Maypole that I think would potentially be a prime sight for a larger bus garage. It could replace Birmingham central and Yardley Wood as Harborne, QE, Bristol Road, Pershore Road, alcester Road, Stratford Road and Warwick Road routes could all be run easily from there. Maybe even other Acocks Green routes too saving a further garage from being needed. The road system round there is good with easy links down Hollywood bypass to the M42 if needed. It would be even better if NXWM got Redditch routes from Diamond as they could operate those from Maypole too via the a435 allowing Redditch depot to close.
There surely must be large savings through consolidation like this.
Quote from: j789 on January 01, 2021, 01:30:47 PM
There is a large piece of land, currently a farm I think, opposite Sainsbury's at Maypole that I think would potentially be a prime sight for a larger bus garage. It could replace Birmingham central and Yardley Wood as Harborne, QE, Bristol Road, Pershore Road, alcester Road, Stratford Road and Warwick Road routes could all be run easily from there. Maybe even other Acocks Green routes too saving a further garage from being needed. The road system round there is good with easy links down Hollywood bypass to the M42 if needed. It would be even better if NXWM got Redditch routes from Diamond as they could operate those from Maypole too via the a435 allowing Redditch depot to close.
There surely must be large savings through consolidation like this.
NX have no intention of Super garages
Quote from: woody38 on January 01, 2021, 10:10:30 AM
There has been investment in new buses in Wolverhampton, but as I said routes like the 59 used to be prime bus routes but Wolves Town centre does not seem the popular destination it once & from the amount of empty buses I c going into the town this had started before COVID, wondered how much profit NX make from there Wolverhampton depot.
59s I have seen have had decent loading and often gets a mixed bag of hybrids, platinums, b7s and tridents.
Didn't the 559/560 recieves those tridents from new?
Quote from: j789 on January 01, 2021, 01:30:47 PM
There is a large piece of land, currently a farm I think, opposite Sainsbury's at Maypole that I think would potentially be a prime sight for a larger bus garage. It could replace Birmingham central and Yardley Wood as Harborne, QE, Bristol Road, Pershore Road, alcester Road, Stratford Road and Warwick Road routes could all be run easily from there. Maybe even other Acocks Green routes too saving a further garage from being needed. The road system round there is good with easy links down Hollywood bypass to the M42 if needed. It would be even better if NXWM got Redditch routes from Diamond as they could operate those from Maypole too via the a435 allowing Redditch depot to close.
There surely must be large savings through consolidation like this.
NX had the opportunity to buy Redditch off First along with Kidderminster & chose not to proceed.
Quote from: Stu on January 01, 2021, 12:26:30 PM
If there's nothing wrong with the existing depots, I doubt it would be worth the cost.
In the case of Perry Barr and Birmingham Central, NX's hand has been forced by way of compulsory purchase orders being issued.
What NX decide next depends on strategic considerations. Certainly BCs routes are mostly in south-west Birmingham, with some in east Birmingham. So in that case it would make some sense to replace BC with two new garages, that wouldn't need to be as big, unless NX were planning to substantially increase the number of vehicles in operation.
In my opinion a site in Longbridge or Northfield would be an ideal base for the Harborne, University, Bristol Road and Pershore Road services.
Longbridge area would be fairly logical. Huge site there still waiting for development to start.
East Brum sort of Chelmsley Wood way would be equally logical and could also take the 94 off Perry Barr.
Wonder why nx bus didn't buy Redditch & Kidderminster
Quote from: Kevin on January 01, 2021, 03:33:11 PM
East Brum sort of Chelmsley Wood way would be equally logical and could also take the 94 off Perry Barr.
Or somewhere in East Birmingham such as some of the Drews Lane site or somewhere else nearby so it could take 28, 55/94, 14, X12/X70, 97, 67 as its not to far from any of those routes.
Would then make sense for AG to get X1/X2/60 as Yardley is very close to AG and then 11A/11C to PB I think (with 28/94/67 gone from there).
Quote from: Kevin on January 01, 2021, 03:33:11 PM
Longbridge area would be fairly logical. Huge site there still waiting for development to start.
East Brum sort of Chelmsley Wood way would be equally logical and could also take the 94 off Perry Barr.
Plus having a college with recently built engineering facilities by the depot, it could be beneficial for them. Don't know about now but I remember when I left the college back in 2014, JLR used to fund the courses and trainings there.
Quote from: Sayeed on January 01, 2021, 04:40:23 PM
Plus having a college with recently built engineering facilities by the depot, it could be beneficial for them. Don't know about now but I remember when I left the college back in 2014, JLR used to fund the courses and trainings there.
NX have a partnership with South & City college for engineering training
Quote from: Kevin on January 01, 2021, 03:33:11 PM
Longbridge area would be fairly logical. Huge site there still waiting for development to start.
There's been rumours of a new bus garage and a 'super garage' at Longbridge for at least 20 years. They're certainly taking their time building it!
Quote from: Tony on January 01, 2021, 12:59:41 PM
They were expensive and designed for 80 years ago, much better to have new garages
I don't disagree at all with you, however -
Lea Hall was a 1950s garage - although seemingly based to an extent on the design of Yardley Wood (30s bus depot). It also had tons of spare capacity in BCT days, to the extent it usually accommodated a couple of long rows of withdrawn buses, and removed mechanical units prior to the buses being towed to Washwood Heath (waste land at the side), for collection by scrap merchants. The full capacity (including outside, and particularly the waste land at the side which was surfaced) was only fully utilised when Coventry Road was closed in 1985 and part of the allocation transferred.
Washwood Heath was originally a tramway depot for the Alum Rock services, converted to bus operation for services 55 and 56 in 1950. However, of more importance is its costly refurb and significant extension (covering the waste land mentioned above), completed in 1985, cost £2 million and also enabling the transfer of other services from Coventry Road and allowing it to close. (Whether the cost of Washwood Heath was recouped in the comparatively short period it remained before closure is an interesting question..).
Thus Wahwood Heath would have been designed for arrangements 35 - 40 yrs ago and Lea Hall, 70 yrs ago.
Interestingly the Coventry Wheatley St depot (opened 1986) had been in WMCC/WMPTA/WMPTE proposals since the mid 70s, serious complaints about noise affecting the adjacent residential area from the ex Coventry CT Harnall Lane depot having been a thorn in the PTE's side from taking over at Coventry in 1974 (they may have featured for many years before.
The noise issues at Quinton seemed to start in the early 50s (the garage was in a residential area), but was not assisted by the fact the Guy double deckers allocated in quantity there had particularly loud and vibration inducing exhausts. They could certainly rattle windows!!
Quote from: don on January 01, 2021, 06:46:04 PM
I don't disagree at all with you, however -
Lea Hall was a 1950s garage - although seemingly based to an extent on the design of Yardley Wood (30s bus depot). It also had tons of spare capacity in BCT days, to the extent it usually accommodated a couple of long rows of withdrawn buses, and removed mechanical units prior to the buses being towed to Washwood Heath (waste land at the side), for collection by scrap merchants. The full capacity (including outside, and particularly the waste land at the side which was surfaced) was only fully utilised when Coventry Road was closed in 1985 and part of the allocation transferred.
Washwood Heath was originally a tramway depot for the Alum Rock services, converted to bus operation for services 55 and 56 in 1950. However, of more importance is its costly refurb and significant extension (covering the waste land mentioned above), completed in 1985, cost £2 million and also enabling the transfer of other services from Coventry Road and allowing it to close. (Whether the cost of Washwood Heath was recouped in the comparatively short period it remained before closure is an interesting question..).
Thus Wahwood Heath would have been designed for arrangements 35 - 40 yrs ago and Lea Hall, 70 yrs ago.
Interestingly the Coventry Wheatley St depot (opened 1986) had been in WMCC/WMPTA/WMPTE proposals since the mid 70s, serious complaints about noise affecting the adjacent residential area from the ex Coventry CT Harnall Lane depot having been a thorn in the PTE's side from taking over at Coventry in 1974 (they may have featured for many years before.
The noise issues at Quinton seemed to start in the early 50s (the garage was in a residential area), but was not assisted by the fact the Guy double deckers allocated in quantity there had particularly loud and vibration inducing exhausts. They could certainly rattle windows!!
Both garages were designed and built when buses were 27foot long was my main point, which they were in 1940, putting 40 foot long buses in caused huge problems, yes both garages were modified to accept 40' long buses but it reduced the capacity considerably and made manouvering difficult.
I dont think Acocks Green will go away for quite some time still. It has one of the most important route in Birmingham itself.
Quote from: Gareth on January 01, 2021, 01:06:37 PM
It was Quinton that had all the complaints about noise. I don't know of any issues like that at Washwood Heath.
people knew they was a depot there so can't moan like football ground with the crowds
Quote from: Solo1 on January 02, 2021, 07:38:42 AM
people knew they was a depot there so can't moan like football ground with the crowds
But they can, and will.
Look at Brands Hatch circuit. It had a housing estate built to the north of the track after the track had been there for many years. The residents complained about the noise, now they can only run between 0830 and 1830, and cannot exceed 101dB of noise.
Quote from: ellspurs on January 02, 2021, 07:46:59 AM
But they can, and will.
Look at Brands Hatch circuit. It had a housing estate built to the north of the track after the track had been there for many years. The residents complained about the noise, now they can only run between 0830 and 1830, and cannot exceed 101dB of noise.
Ironic they built a Tescos supermarket on the Quinton site with lorries doing early deliveries and a lot more traffic with shoppers coming and going.
Quote from: filbus1 on January 02, 2021, 08:34:54 AM
Ironic they built a Tescos supermarket on the Quinton site with lorries doing early deliveries and a lot more traffic with shoppers coming and going.
so they are now worse off now. Cars coming all hours & lorries the same
Quote from: filbus1 on January 02, 2021, 08:34:54 AM
Ironic they built a Tescos supermarket on the Quinton site with lorries doing early deliveries and a lot more traffic with shoppers coming and going.
The complaints re Quinton depot heightened once Dudley and Hartshill garages closed and QN absorbed a lot of their routes, on top of the Quinton and Harborne routes already running from there. Capacity increased significantly with the depot operational 20 hours a day.
Quote from: Mike K on January 02, 2021, 07:50:22 PM
The complaints re Quinton depot heightened once Dudley and Hartshill garages closed and QN absorbed a lot of their routes, on top of the Quinton and Harborne routes already running from there. Capacity increased significantly with the depot operational 20 hours a day.
Then shops opposite the QN depot began to wonder why they a had a big decline in trade.