These are seen regually on Newtown Row, (a stones throw from their office).
I apprechiate they may be doing checks on there way to and from their office, but they are there almost on a daily basis at various times. Great if you're a driver on these routes, but on my routes they are seen once in a blue moon and fraud is rife. It is quite infuriating.
Do senior NXWM management really understand the extent of fraud and smoking? The lack of revenue inspectors is a green light to fraudsters who know they have a very low chance of inspectors boarding, (unless of course it is a 33, 51, 52, 934 etc).
Quote from: Bham Central Driver on January 18, 2016, 01:17:24 PM
These are seen regually on Newtown Row, (a stones throw from their office).
I apprechiate they may be doing checks on there way to and from their office, but they are there almost on a daily basis at various times. Great if you're a driver on these routes, but on my routes they are seen once in a blue moon and fraud is rife. It is quite infuriating.
Do senior NXWM management really understand the extent of fraud and smoking? The lack of revenue inspectors is a green light to fraudsters who know they have a very low chance of inspectors boarding, (unless of course it is a 33, 51, 52, 934 etc).
The revenue inspectors started targeting the 11 when I was there. Would always appear on random bits of the route, had them catch my bus a couple times to get to different places on the route. They turned up in Handsworth after dark, around 7pm once which was surprising.
I know there are probably 1001 reasons why it couldn't be done, but wouldn't it be better to have small teams of Revenue Inspectors based at each garage?
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 18, 2016, 01:52:39 PM
I know there are probably 1001 reasons why it couldn't be done, but wouldn't it be better to have small teams of Revenue Inspectors based at each garage?
That has been tried. I became a Revenue Inspector based at Walsall, not centrally, but the current system works better. Interviews and assessments are currently taking place for more Revenue Inpsectors to expand the team again.
The Newtown Row services are not the most checked services
Quote from: Bham Central Driver on January 18, 2016, 01:17:24 PM
These are seen regually on Newtown Row, (a stones throw from their office).
I apprechiate they may be doing checks on there way to and from their office, but they are there almost on a daily basis at various times. Great if you're a driver on these routes, but on my routes they are seen once in a blue moon and fraud is rife. It is quite infuriating.
Do senior NXWM management really understand the extent of fraud and smoking? The lack of revenue inspectors is a green light to fraudsters who know they have a very low chance of inspectors boarding, (unless of course it is a 33, 51, 52, 934 etc).
I went passed Miller Street on Friday and a dozen inspectors were at the stop chatting together and flagging down buses. I do think they should serve other routes since if they regularly appear at a location, fare dodgers will get off or on where they know the Inspector's will not be. Actually the stop after where the Inspector's were, a person got on without a valid ticket and the driver turned off the engine when the person didn't return. The individual eventually did, verbally abusing the driver before punching the Assault Screen. I'd hate to see the abuse the Inspector's get when they drag people off the buses.
Quote from: Tony on January 18, 2016, 01:59:18 PM
That has been tried. I became a Revenue Inspector based at Walsall, not centrally, but the current system works better. Interviews and assessments are currently taking place for more Revenue Inpsectors to expand the team again.
The Newtown Row services are not the most checked services
Ok, but you can understand my annoyance seeing them there on an almost daily basis, when on my routes Ive seen them about 3 times in 5 years.
Quote from: Bham Central Driver on January 18, 2016, 02:05:46 PM
Ok, but you can understand my annoyance seeing them there on an almost daily basis, when on my routes Ive seen them about 3 times in 5 years.
There was a period a couple of months ago where they ventured to some random locations such as Sutton Coldfield, Witton Rd etc. I do think that is a better way of doing it. Appear at random locations along the route. For example, instead of always doing Newtown Rd.
Quote from: Michael Bevan on January 18, 2016, 02:04:13 PM
Actually the stop after where the Inspector's were, a person got on without a valid ticket and the driver turned off the engine when the person didn't return. The individual eventually did, verbally abusing the driver before punching the Assault Screen. I'd hate to see the abuse the Inspector's get when they drag people off the buses.
That is a common trick, a person will get off the bus and walk when the inspectors are there and then try to get on another bus a stop or two down. You would think most drivers would be wise to this.
Quote from: Michael Bevan on January 18, 2016, 02:10:04 PM
There was a period a couple of months ago where they ventured to some random locations such as Sutton Coldfield, Witton Rd etc. I do think that is a better way of doing it. Appear at random locations along the route. For example, instead of always doing Newtown Rd.
How can you say there are better ways of doing thinks when you don't know how they currently work. And you didn't see 'A Dozen' inspectors at Miller Street together
Quote from: Tony on January 18, 2016, 02:13:32 PM
How can you say there are better ways of doing thinks when you don't know how they currently work. And you didn't see 'A Dozen' inspectors at Miller Street together
I'd say about eight were there. I can tell you there were a lot. I'm not sure if it was two teams, and one was moving elsewhere, but I can tell you there was quite a few of them there.
I've already seen the unofficial 2017 make your own bus passes we get regular check on the Hagley road but fraud is still bad
Most surprisingly they've made their onto the Amazon services as well in the past !
I've seen them pop up in a few places - down in Billesley on the 11, which a couple of times led to people being taken off. Solihull Blossomfield also had some once, again resulting in a couple being led from the 6. Works quite well - do it on the Metro as well. Would be good if it's further expanded.
Or just tell people the fares would be alot cheaper if fare evasion wasn't so rife. I know that's not strictly true but the people who do it are thick enough to believe it.
Ironic that this morning was the first time I'd seen Revenue Inspectors in a while, out on the Stratford Road at the Ladypool Road stop. Though I do believe they appear more frequently, up by Camp Hill Island.
Quote from: Bham Central Driver on January 18, 2016, 02:13:11 PM
That is a common trick, a person will get off the bus and walk when the inspectors are there and then try to get on another bus a stop or two down. You would think most drivers would be wise to this.
The inspectors stop everyone who is getting off and check their ticket; I have on occasions previously seen people frantically trying to get off when they spot inspectors at the stop!
Quote from: Ashley 60171 on January 18, 2016, 06:10:14 PM
Or just tell people the fares would be alot cheaper if fare evasion wasn't so rife. I know that's not strictly true but the people who do it are thick enough to believe it.
Trouble is even they won't believe it is cheaper than the 'zero' they are paying
The trouble with all this, and it seems more and more common now, is that the public realise that the inspectors have no authority. You can walk away. Even the police don't have any authority. If I was a fare evader, I'm confident that I could travel all NXWM buses and literally put the police in their place. Ultimately, as far as I'm aware, if NXWM want to see a pass from a passenger and the passenger walks away, what are the police going to do, other than try and bully you or scare you into giving your details. It's a civil matter, should any case be started, as there is no evidence from NXWM that you are fare evading in the first place. Only thing they can do is maybe find CCTV to see if you just walked on or not, and they're not gonna be able to pull that up at the side of the road in time.
I may be missing something here, but ultimately it appears to me that if you really wanted to, you could get away with it no problem.
Quote from: Tony on January 18, 2016, 06:13:23 PM
Trouble is even they won't believe it is cheaper than the 'zero' they are paying
True. If I'd have passed my Psychology AS Level a few years ago, that original statement may have meant something lol. Sometimes it works in those debates you cant help but enter on bus fares. Sorry I dont think any of this makes sense. <proceeds to run>
Quote from: MW on January 18, 2016, 07:23:33 PM
The trouble with all this, and it seems more and more common now, is that the public realise that the inspectors have no authority. You can walk away. Even the police don't have any authority. If I was a fare evader, I'm confident that I could travel all NXWM buses and literally put the police in their place. Ultimately, as far as I'm aware, if NXWM want to see a pass from a passenger and the passenger walks away, what are the police going to do, other than try and bully you or scare you into giving your details. It's a civil matter, should any case be started, as there is no evidence from NXWM that you are fare evading in the first place. Only thing they can do is maybe find CCTV to see if you just walked on or not, and they're not gonna be able to pull that up at the side of the road in time.
I may be missing something here, but ultimately it appears to me that if you really wanted to, you could get away with it no problem.
You are, It is not a civil matter, it is a criminal matter and the police do have the right to detain you for it. You have stated your views on the law before, but fare evasion is criminal, and using an out of date, altered ticket/pass or a home made pass is an arrestable offence
Quote from: MW on January 18, 2016, 07:23:33 PM
The trouble with all this, and it seems more and more common now, is that the public realise that the inspectors have no authority. You can walk away. Even the police don't have any authority. If I was a fare evader, I'm confident that I could travel all NXWM buses and literally put the police in their place. Ultimately, as far as I'm aware, if NXWM want to see a pass from a passenger and the passenger walks away, what are the police going to do, other than try and bully you or scare you into giving your details. It's a civil matter, should any case be started, as there is no evidence from NXWM that you are fare evading in the first place. Only thing they can do is maybe find CCTV to see if you just walked on or not, and they're not gonna be able to pull that up at the side of the road in time.
I may be missing something here, but ultimately it appears to me that if you really wanted to, you could get away with it no problem.
The inspectors themselves I believe have little power, it's the police who yield the power here. A case for fare evasion can be made if inadequate proof of fare can be shown.
Quote from: Tony on January 18, 2016, 07:28:27 PM
You are, It is not a civil matter, it is a criminal matter and the police do have the right to detain you for it. You have stated your views on the law before, but fare evasion is criminal, and using an out of date, altered ticket/pass or a home made pass is an arrestable offence
It has to be a criminal offence as otherwise nobody would buy tickets because NE (or any other bus company for that matter) wouldn't have time or money to take everyone to a civil County Court. Thankfully the prospect of getting a criminal conviction and substantial fine does prevent most people from fare evading.
Quote from: MW on January 18, 2016, 07:23:33 PM
The trouble with all this, and it seems more and more common now, is that the public realise that the inspectors have no authority. You can walk away. Even the police don't have any authority. If I was a fare evader, I'm confident that I could travel all NXWM buses and literally put the police in their place. Ultimately, as far as I'm aware, if NXWM want to see a pass from a passenger and the passenger walks away, what are the police going to do, other than try and bully you or scare you into giving your details. It's a civil matter, should any case be started, as there is no evidence from NXWM that you are fare evading in the first place. Only thing they can do is maybe find CCTV to see if you just walked on or not, and they're not gonna be able to pull that up at the side of the road in time.
I may be missing something here, but ultimately it appears to me that if you really wanted to, you could get away with it no problem.
And unfortunately a lot of people share that view
The view that you can get away with not paying for goods/services. The view that people of authority have "no authority".
I find it odd that you would be a bus driver and yet agree with the sort of people that would otherwise ultimately contribute to your wage
Quote from: Kevin on January 18, 2016, 08:28:39 PM
And unfortunately a lot of people share that view
The view that you can get away with not paying for goods/services. The view that people of authority have "no authority".
I find it odd that you would be a bus driver and yet agree with the sort of people that would otherwise ultimately contribute to your wage
It's a sad fact nowadays that so many people have little respect for rules/regulations, their surroundings, and for other people as well as themselves. >:(
Ive had some on my bus that travelled from pheasey to newtown which was really affective, it was like a Trojan horse! I saw a few kids get on with dodgy tickets but didn't say anything as I knew I had revenue on board! The look on their faces was priceless when they were caught and given fines!
I agree with what MW has said too unfortunately the offenders seem to just stroll off when they've been caught unchallenged. It seems that the 51 runs on donations, which is probably one of the most abused from my experience. I know of a driver that refuses to do the 51 because it makes him so angry!
Quote from: BU07 LGO on January 18, 2016, 09:27:53 PM
Ive had some on my bus that travelled from pheasey to newtown which was really affective, it was like a Trojan horse! I saw a few kids get on with dodgy tickets but didn't say anything as I knew I had revenue on board!
I agree with what MW has said too unfortunately the offenders seem to just stroll off when they've been caught unchallenged. It seems that the 51 runs on donations, which is probably one of the most abused from my experience. I know of a driver that refuses to do the 51 because it makes him so angry!
Problem is this doesn't happen enough.
The other thing I have seen is when schools kids get on the bus, if there are a few of them, they all try putting the money in at the same time, the driver doesn't stand a chance to see if the fare is correct or is just a few coppers.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 18, 2016, 09:33:03 PM
Problem is this doesn't happen enough.
The other thing I have seen is when schools kids get on the bus, if there are a few of them, they all try putting the money in at the same time, the driver doesn't stand a chance to see if the fare is correct or is just a few coppers.
I know, your limited to what you can do if they're children too
Quote from: BU07 LGO on January 18, 2016, 09:34:10 PM
I know, your limited to what you can do if they're children too
Very true, that is what of the downfalls of the cash vault system, if they had to put the money on the cash tray then it wouldn't be so easy.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 18, 2016, 09:37:28 PM
Very true, that is what of the downfalls of the cash vault system, if they had to put the money on the cash tray then it wouldn't be so easy.
wouldn't it?
Makes no difference whatsoever, what is a driver supposed to do if a child just puts 20p on the cash tray and walks past?
Grab him? Swear at him? Refuse him travel?
All ways to get a P45
Ask him for the rest of his fare - yes, that's the correct answer to which the reply is, sorry mister, that's all I've got. Then what?
Exactly the same as if he puts 20p in a vault and walks past
Quote from: Tony on January 18, 2016, 09:48:23 PM
wouldn't it?
Makes no difference whatsoever, what is a driver supposed to do if a child just puts 20p on the cash tray and walks past?
Grab him? Swear at him? Refuse him travel?
All ways to get a P45
Ask him for the rest of his fare - yes, that's the correct answer to which the reply is, sorry mister, that's all I've got. Then what?
Exactly the same as if he puts 20p in a vault and walks past
Well I have to say, if that's the case, why do NE charge under 16s a fare?
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 18, 2016, 10:00:34 PM
Well I have to say, if that's the case, why do NE charge under 16s a fare?
Because the vast majority pay
Exactly - remember that the vast majority of passengers (under 16 or over) are law abiding people who pay up. There's always idiots who don't pay and cause a problem, at the expense of others, but they aren't the majority, at least in my experience.
Was on 4822 on 7/09 earlier and I was surprised to find some on Witton Rd near Moor Lane. However they didn't hail us. A fight was going on upstairs. It stopped for a minute after someone shouted "Inspector". However since we went past, fight which was going on upstairs was allowed to continue.
And if the CCTV was requested I wonder what would be seen
Revenue came on one of the buses that I was on today in the city centre doing their usual passes/tickets checks and one of the passengers onboard had apparently used contactless with a debit card to pay to which one of the inspectors asked if they could see the last 4 digits of their card in order to prove this. This question clearly did not go down too well with the passenger as they started to confront the inspector asking why they needed to show them their personal card details. After several refusals to show the numbers the inspector then asked if they could only see the last 3 digits where the passenger refused again. The inspector lastly asked for the last 2 digits of the card number and just like the previous few attempts the inspector was unsuccessful in getting any information out of the passenger. Eventually, the inspector had escorted the passenger outside where they appeared to be having some form of a verbal altercation for a couple of minutes and then the passenger returned back on to the bus and it looked as if they had won as they were still ranting on about the question that they were asked and how they are not giving their card details to anyone. The real question is though how is the inspector supposed to identify whether or not the card was used solely based on the last 2 digits of the number? and does this always usually happen whenever an inspection of such is done on a passenger who is paying with contactless? I thought they just had to show them the card and that's it.
Quote from: frostjay974 on January 16, 2025, 07:40:47 PMRevenue came on one of the buses that I was on today in the city centre doing their usual passes/tickets checks and one of the passengers onboard had apparently used contactless with a debit card to pay to which one of the inspectors asked if they could see the last 4 digits of their card in order to prove this. This question clearly did not go down too well with the passenger as they started to confront the inspector asking why they needed to show them their personal card details. After several refusals to show the numbers the inspector then asked if they could only see the last 3 digits where the passenger refused again. The inspector lastly asked for the last 2 digits of the card number and just like the previous few attempts the inspector was unsuccessful in getting any information out of the passenger. Eventually, the inspector had escorted the passenger outside where they appeared to be having some form of a verbal altercation for a couple of minutes and then the passenger returned back on to the bus and it looked as if they had won as they were still ranting on about the question that they were asked and how they are not giving their card details to anyone. The real question is though how is the inspector supposed to identify whether or not the card was used solely based on the last 2 digits of the number? and does this always usually happen whenever an inspection of such is done on a passenger who is paying with contactless? I thought they just had to show them the card and that's it.
They print a ticket of the ticket machine which tell them the last four numbers of any contact card used
Quote from: frostjay974 on January 16, 2025, 07:40:47 PMRevenue came on one of the buses that I was on today in the city centre doing their usual passes/tickets checks and one of the passengers onboard had apparently used contactless with a debit card to pay to which one of the inspectors asked if they could see the last 4 digits of their card in order to prove this. This question clearly did not go down too well with the passenger as they started to confront the inspector asking why they needed to show them their personal card details. After several refusals to show the numbers the inspector then asked if they could only see the last 3 digits where the passenger refused again. The inspector lastly asked for the last 2 digits of the card number and just like the previous few attempts the inspector was unsuccessful in getting any information out of the passenger. Eventually, the inspector had escorted the passenger outside where they appeared to be having some form of a verbal altercation for a couple of minutes and then the passenger returned back on to the bus and it looked as if they had won as they were still ranting on about the question that they were asked and how they are not giving their card details to anyone. The real question is though how is the inspector supposed to identify whether or not the card was used solely based on the last 2 digits of the number? and does this always usually happen whenever an inspection of such is done on a passenger who is paying with contactless? I thought they just had to show them the card and that's it.
Not to mention, if you use your card on Apple/Google/Samsung pay, that specific information is obfuscated to the seller. As in, Apple/Google/Samsung pay create a new card number that's to be shared with the seller in a measure to protect your real card number.
https://www.apple.com/uk/apple-pay/
https://pay.google.com/intl/en_uk/about/learn/
https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS10002586/
Use of the last 4 digits is fairly standard industry practice and is permitted under Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard*. You'll often see the last 4 digits of your card printed on a paper receipt.
So NX are perfectly within their rights to check this as part of revenue inspection.
With contactless it's the only realistic way they can check.
* I know this is boring, but it's part of my job
Quote from: frostjay974 on January 16, 2025, 07:40:47 PMRevenue came on one of the buses that I was on today in the city centre doing their usual passes/tickets checks and one of the passengers onboard had apparently used contactless with a debit card to pay to which one of the inspectors asked if they could see the last 4 digits of their card in order to prove this. This question clearly did not go down too well with the passenger as they started to confront the inspector asking why they needed to show them their personal card details. After several refusals to show the numbers the inspector then asked if they could only see the last 3 digits where the passenger refused again. The inspector lastly asked for the last 2 digits of the card number and just like the previous few attempts the inspector was unsuccessful in getting any information out of the passenger. Eventually, the inspector had escorted the passenger outside where they appeared to be having some form of a verbal altercation for a couple of minutes and then the passenger returned back on to the bus and it looked as if they had won as they were still ranting on about the question that they were asked and how they are not giving their card details to anyone. The real question is though how is the inspector supposed to identify whether or not the card was used solely based on the last 2 digits of the number? and does this always usually happen whenever an inspection of such is done on a passenger who is paying with contactless? I thought they just had to show them the card and that's it.
Revenue inspectors only need to see the last four digits of the card number to verify that card has been used on that bus journey.
https://faq.nxbus.co.uk/s/article/How-will-a-bus-inspector-know-that-I-have-paid?language=en_US
QuoteHow will a bus inspector know that I have paid?
Bus Inspectors will be given a list of Tap & Cap customers from the driver.
If you have used a credit/debit card:
You will need to provide the inspector with the last 4 digits of the card number.
I've been on board buses which have had a visit from the inspectors, and they either ask that person to read out the last four digits to them, or they'll ask to see the card themselves. You can of course obscure the rest of the card number, the inspector just needs to see the last four digits.
I may be wrong, but I think the list that gets printed off only shows the last four digits of the cards that have been used on that particular bus journey anyway.
It sounds to me like that person you describe may have just been a bit overly paranoid - at the end of the day what is anyone going to do with the last four digits of your card number anyway? Not like they're going to steal your card details and go on an Amazon shopping spree! :rolleyes:
All the inspector wants to ensure is that you have a right to be on that bus. If you don't have a valid paper ticket or Swift card, and you paid with 'tap and go' the only way to 'prove' your validity is to confirm your card has been used on that bus. Simple as that.
Sadly from observable experiences, I find that those people who make the most noise or fuss whenever confronted or challenged by inspectors or drivers are usually 'in the wrong'.
Quote from: Stu on January 16, 2025, 08:22:59 PMIt sounds to me like that person you describe may have just been a bit overly paranoid
Funny enough they did say that they work and have 'expertise' in the cyber security field!
Quote from: frostjay974 on January 16, 2025, 10:00:46 PMFunny enough they did say that they work and have 'expertise' in the cyber security field!
Then they're talking out of their arse. As I posted above, the industry technical security standard on this permits the electronic storage of the last 4 digits of customer payment cards. There's no way your card can be compromised based on the last 4 digits alone.
The passenger's actions do seem well over the top.
I thought I'd look for the conditions of carriage on the NX website, and found here (https://nxbus.co.uk/media/6068/contactless-terms-and-conditonsdocx.pdf)that:-
"You must let an authorised member of staff or a police officer inspect your contactless payment card or device at any time during your journey if asked to do so. You may be asked to touch your card or device on their portable card reader as part of their inspection or to state the last 4 digits of the card number for a physical card or the 'Device Account Number' for Apple Pay or 'Virtual Account Number' for Android Pay, if requested to do so."
I think the first sentence is clear enough!
Quote from: Justin Tyme on January 16, 2025, 10:36:21 PMThe opassenger's actions do seem well over the top.
Normally people kicking up a fuss with revenue inspectors might not have actually paid in the first place I would expect.
I did wonder how it worked with Tap and Go as I use my card to pay, sometimes the driver prints a ticket other times they don't, I often wondered If I had a single ticket for my first bus of the day would they still see I had a ticket, at least now I know they ask to see my card.
Going a bit off topic here but something that I find quite bizarre is the amount of people who I've seen who are objectively not over the age of 18 who are using tap and cap with a bank card to pay when it takes hardly any effort for them to just ask the driver to print them a child daysaver or single ticket saving them from having to pay double when they don't have to.:huh:
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on January 17, 2025, 11:09:18 AMI did wonder how it worked with Tap and Go as I use my card to pay, sometimes the driver prints a ticket other times they don't,
With Tap And Go, no ticket is issued.
Hopefully BC management share the CCTV footage of the scumbag who spat and threw a bottle at the driver on 4894 as well as hitting the plastic screen because he didn't want to pay with the police.
Service 14. 19:45 journey 185 to Chelmsley Wood at Priory Queensway.