Just been thinking, will NXWM ever have 5-digit fleet numbers? And does anyone know the history behind our 3/4-digit fleet numbers where everyone else seems to have 5 or a mixture of letters etc.
Just thinking what'll replace the MkII Metrobus fleet numbers and wouldn't it be swell to have a photoshoot of the 21st Century 2557 vs. that one in preservation?
Just a bit of banter really.
The current numbering system has its origins in Birmingham City Transport system years ago.
BCT numbered their buses from 1 to around 3885 (I cannot remember what the last bus actually delivered to BCT was) almost in the order as they arrived. WMPTE then carried on from there up to 4799. Because vehicles acquired with Midland Red were numbered randomly between 4843 and 6293, they then jumped to 6301 (certain vehicle acquired latey used 6297-6300) until they got to 7054 (there were two 7053s, a loned Ailsa from Merseyside and a Dennis Lancet).
Someone then decided it would be a good idea to seperate single decks out of the numbering scheme and changed the first digit on all SDs to a 1 with all new SDs following on from the Dennis Lances (now 1053/4) until 1707. You can work out Single deck numbering since then as the vehicles are still current!
About the same time the 'new' generation Double Decks were being ordered so a new series was started 2001-75 for the Metrobuses and 2076-2150 for the Leyland Titans that never arrived. This ran until 3124. I never knew why the Scanias were 3201 up not 3125 as different SDs at the same time followed on. The next double decks ordered were Low floor so yet another series was started. Initially the first Spectra was fleetnumber 1, but when the batch was ordered they ran 4001 upwards to the state we are in now.
in 1986 the Minibus invasion started. These were to take numbers 501-999. we got from 501-720 (with no 684-700) until they decided fleetnumbers should all be in order for the number of seats, so 701-20 were renumbered 201-20 with all new minibuses following on up to 322. Midibuses then took 501 upwards up until 720 and where we are now.
The only buses that don't actually fit anywhere in this system were Darts which were 801 upwards. Rather ironically the darts direct descendant the Enviro 200s have take the same numbers
BCT's last number used was 3880 and WMPTE carried on using the series upto 7054 in 1980.
When Coventry, West Bromwich, Walsall & Wolverhampton buses were acquired their numbers had a letter suffix added.
Midland Red aquisitions kept their original numbers.
Quote from: JIM H on June 30, 2013, 05:25:43 PM
BCT's last number used was 3880 and WMPTE carried on using the series upto 7054 in 1980.
When Coventry, West Bromwich, Walsall & Wolverhampton buses were acquired their numbers had a letter suffix added.
Midland Red aquisitions kept their original numbers.
No a couple of the 'Jumbos' 3881 upwards were delivered to BCT
Quote from: Tony on June 30, 2013, 05:32:48 PM
Quote from: JIM H on June 30, 2013, 05:25:43 PM
BCT's last number used was 3880 and WMPTE carried on using the series upto 7054 in 1980.
When Coventry, West Bromwich, Walsall & Wolverhampton buses were acquired their numbers had a letter suffix added.
Midland Red aquisitions kept their original numbers.
No a couple of the 'Jumbos' 3881 upwards were delivered to BCT
Malcolm Keeley's 1978 Birmingham City Transport book has a picture of one of the early 388x jumbos at the Valley, Yardley Wood on route 18 in the darker blue livery and with BCT coat of arms
3881-3895 were delivered to BCT in the darker blue, 3881/2 even had BCT coat or arms, 3883-95 had no fleetnames, all 15 had WMPTE legal adresses before entering service and none of them entered service until 1st October 1969, the first day of WMPTE.
There were some BCT buses numbered out of series:
Pre WW2 single deckers re-used numbers 29, 47-90 and then also 32-76 (i.e. 47-76 used 3 times)
After 1939 Daimler COG5 1319 numbers for double deckers re-used 101-295 for 1939 deliveries, followed later in 1947 by Leyland Titan PD2 296. The first WW2 Utility buses restarted the main series at 1320.
Finally 3229 was only used by demonstrators and was only carried by AEC Bridgemaster 2211MK from March-May '61, it may also have been allocated to Daimler Fleetline demonstrator 7000HP but was not carried.
Quote from: busfan2847 on July 01, 2013, 12:37:17 AM
3881-3895 were delivered to BCT in the darker blue, 3881/2 even had BCT coat or arms, 3883-95 had no fleetnames, all 15 had WMPTE legal adresses before entering service and none of them entered service until 1st October 1969, the first day of WMPTE.
There were some BCT buses numbered out of series:
Pre WW2 single deckers re-used numbers 29, 47-90 and then also 32-76 (i.e. 47-76 used 3 times)
After 1939 Daimler COG5 1319 numbers for double deckers re-used 101-295 for 1939 deliveries, followed later in 1947 by Leyland Titan PD2 296. The first WW2 Utility buses restarted the main series at 1320.
Finally 3229 was only used by demonstrators and was only carried by AEC Bridgemaster 2211MK from March-May '61, it may also have been allocated to Daimler Fleetline demonstrator 7000HP but was not carried.
Are you absolutely certain 3883 was delivered in Cobalt blue?
Quote from: JIM H on June 30, 2013, 05:25:43 PM
BCT's last number used was 3880 and WMPTE carried on using the series upto 7054 in 1980.
When Coventry, West Bromwich, Walsall & Wolverhampton buses were acquired their numbers had a letter suffix added.
Midland Red aquisitions kept their original numbers.
A fair chunk of the ex-Coventry Transport fleet survived well into the 1980's and some had 1xxx added to their old Coventry fleet numbers, so 23Y [originally 23] became 1023 and so on. The last few ran until deregulation in Oct 1986.
Those rare (well, they felt rare) occasions circa 1980 when L-suffix buses appeared on the 377 and H-suffix on the 451 at Beggar's Bush (I think). At the other end of the journey to school we had the exiled (industrial relations) Y-suffix buses, some positively antique, working out of Selly Oak on the Bristol Road service group. Happy days...
Quote from: settlerman on July 01, 2013, 02:33:41 PM
Quote from: busfan2847 on July 01, 2013, 12:37:17 AM
3881-3895 were delivered to BCT in the darker blue, 3881/2 even had BCT coat or arms, 3883-95 had no fleetnames, all 15 had WMPTE legal adresses before entering service and none of them entered service until 1st October 1969, the first day of WMPTE.
There were some BCT buses numbered out of series:
Pre WW2 single deckers re-used numbers 29, 47-90 and then also 32-76 (i.e. 47-76 used 3 times)
After 1939 Daimler COG5 1319 numbers for double deckers re-used 101-295 for 1939 deliveries, followed later in 1947 by Leyland Titan PD2 296. The first WW2 Utility buses restarted the main series at 1320.
Finally 3229 was only used by demonstrators and was only carried by AEC Bridgemaster 2211MK from March-May '61, it may also have been allocated to Daimler Fleetline demonstrator 7000HP but was not carried.
Are you absolutely certain 3883 was delivered in Cobalt blue?
According to the Keeley WMPTE book it was.
Quote from: Tony on June 30, 2013, 05:12:52 PM
The current numbering system has its origins in Birmingham City Transport system years ago.
BCT numbered their buses from 1 to around 3885 (I cannot remember what the last bus actually delivered to BCT was) almost in the order as they arrived. WMPTE then carried on from there up to 4799. Because vehicles acquired with Midland Red were numbered randomly between 4843 and 6293, they then jumped to 6301 (certain vehicle acquired latey used 6297-6300) until they got to 7054 (there were two 7053s, a loned Ailsa from Merseyside and a Dennis Lancet).
7053 was loaned from Glasgow A10 painted in wmpte livery , the one from Merseyside ran in there livery , if I remember correctly.
About the same time the 'new' generation Double Decks were being ordered so a new series was started 2001-75 for the Metrobuses and 2076-2150 for the Leyland Titans that never arrived. This ran until 3124. I never knew why the Scanias were 3201 up not 3125 as different SDs at the same time followed on. The next double decks ordered were Low floor so yet another series was started. Initially the first Spectra was fleetnumber 1, but when the batch was ordered they ran 4001 upwards to the state we are in now.
in 1986 the Minibus invasion started. These were to take numbers 501-999. we got from 501-720 (with no 684-700) until they decided fleetnumbers should all be in order for the number of seats, so 701-20 were renumbered 201-20 with all new minibuses following on up to 322. Midibuses then took 501 upwards up until 720 and where we are now.
The only buses that don't actually fit anywhere in this system were Darts which were 801 upwards. Rather ironically the darts direct descendant the Enviro 200s have take the same numbers
hiya i recently spotted a wmpte bus picture on flickr registration 352 kov parked in bull ring bus station in 1977 its route was the 98 which i thought was a lea hall based bus route , the same vehicle a picture was taken in 1974 on the 60 bus route with was a coventry road based route , had this bus been put on loan to lea hall at that time many thanks .
Quote from: settlerman on July 01, 2013, 02:33:41 PM
Are you absolutely certain 3883 was delivered in Cobalt blue?
Definitely - 3881-3895 ran in BCT livery - I never saw one with a crest although Malcolm Keeley's book shows one (3881) with it - I guess they were removed shortly after delivery. These 15 buses took on a very faded and matt dark blue look, made worse by the extra large areas of paint it seemed, until their first repaint. 3896 - 3934 were delivered in BCT livery (minus crests) but with Oxford Blue in place of the Birmingham blue lower deck panels. They had black lining as per a BCT Fleetline. 3935 on were delivered similarly, but without lining. They all had BCT style fleet numbers. The West Midlands fleet name was perfected/introduced part way (??) through delivery of the batch. I have a photo of a line of newly delivered Jumbos in SO with no fleet names - 3914 is at the front. And the batch was initially spilt 3881-3903 (YW for 18), 3904-3966 (SO for 20, 61-63); 3967-3979 (AG for 36).
It has been suggested that 7000 HP originally had registration 3229 VP booked (presumably fleet number 3229) but was instead retained as a demonstrator by Daimler and replaced by an order for 3241-3250 (which were Fleetlines chassis 4-13 (60004 -13) - dreadful one wasn't preserved.
Quote from: iansdavies on April 24, 2016, 09:06:39 PM
hiya i recently spotted a wmpte bus picture on flickr registration 352 kov parked in bull ring bus station in 1977 its route was the 98 which i thought was a lea hall based bus route , the same vehicle a picture was taken in 1974 on the 60 bus route with was a coventry road based route , had this bus been put on loan to lea hall at that time many thanks .
It started off at Moseley Road for the 50 route, along with 3351-3383 in 1964 - coincidentally the first of the KOV buses I saw, brand new in summer 1964. These BCT Fleetlines got transferred around a lot in the early 70s - and Moseley Road closed as a garage in the early 70s, the 50 transferring to YW. Moseley Road reopened to operate ex Midland Red services for a while from the end of 1973 - before closing to become a WMPTE engineering training school.
Quote from: iansdavies on April 24, 2016, 09:06:39 PM
hiya i recently spotted a wmpte bus picture on flickr registration 352 kov parked in bull ring bus station in 1977 its route was the 98 which i thought was a lea hall based bus route , the same vehicle a picture was taken in 1974 on the 60 bus route with was a coventry road based route , had this bus been put on loan to lea hall at that time many thanks .
PTE era history:
MR, QN 07/71, MR 07/71, PB 09/71, CV ??/??, LH 04/76, CV 06/77, YW 09/77, w 05/79.
thanks dave youre a good un :D
i also spotted a wmpte bus bon 497c on a old midland red bus route 169 which ran from birmingham to berwicks lane in chelmsley wood, i think it may have been on loan to sutton garage as most of chelmsleys buses operated from there any ideas .
I've got 3497 at LH between 2/76-4/76, carrying a 'Bissell' orange all over advertisement at that time.
Quote from: dave47549 (no longer NEL111P) on April 29, 2016, 07:27:39 AM
I've got 3497 at LH between 2/76-4/76, carrying a 'Bissell' orange all over advertisement at that time.
Sutton Coldfield garage was always borrowing buses from various garages, but I suspect 3497 was running from LH when you saw it. Sutton only had odd journeys on the 169
Remember in 1996 metroriders helding fleetnumbers 5xx 6xx series to be replaced by
Volvo B6 around 1997/1998 with same fleet numbers 5xx 6xx series.
Also Leyland National 1467-1480 was very close to Volvo B10L 1467-1480.
Gaa buses 1501-1514 new in 1997 close to 15xx Leyland Nationals.
1505 TOE 505N Leyland National at Walsall atound 1995/1996.
Gas powered B10L 1505 P505 KOK by June 1997
Quote from: B10L1473 on April 29, 2016, 11:17:41 AM
1505 TOE 505N Leyland National at Walsall atound 1995/1996.
Gas powered B10L 1505 P505 KOK by June 1997
P-KOK sounds very colourful, think you mean P-KOX, which is the whole flock.
Quote from: The Real 4778 on April 29, 2016, 12:24:16 PM
P-KOK sounds very colourful, think you mean P-KOX, which is the whole flock.
And the wit strikes again :D
Quote from: B10L1473 on April 29, 2016, 11:17:41 AM
Remember in 1996 metroriders helding fleetnumbers 5xx 6xx series to be replaced by
Volvo B6 around 1997/1998 with same fleet numbers 5xx 6xx series.
Also Leyland National 1467-1480 was very close to Volvo B10L 1467-1480.
Gaa buses 1501-1514 new in 1997 close to 15xx Leyland Nationals.
1505 TOE 505N Leyland National at Walsall atound 1995/1996.
Gas powered B10L 1505 P505 KOK by June 1997
The 1st batch of nationals were originally 4467-4526 renumbered 1467-1526 so some of the mercs O405N also matched the nationals as well 1515-1526 that came out
thanks lads i didnt know the 169 operated from lea hall this must have happened just after wmpte took over midland red operations must have been around 1975
Quote from: iansdavies on April 30, 2016, 07:37:20 PM
thanks lads i didnt know the 169 operated from lea hall this must have happened just after wmpte took over midland red operations must have been around 1975
WMPTE took over Midland Red workings in West Midlands County from 3rd December 1973 setting up Midland Red (Metropolitan) Ltd to aid the transfer. Originally operational responsibility for all Midland Red (Metropolitan) Ltd routes was with North Division (ex Walsall, Wolverhampton and West Bromwich) as most of the routes ran in the North Division area. From June 1974 Moseley Rd, Sutton and Sheepcote St depots passed to South Division (ex Birmingham Corporation). Sheepcote St and Moseley Rd closed on 16th November 1975 and their services (and vehicles) passed to other South Division (Birmingham Corporation) garages. Midland Red Fleetlines passed to Acocks Green, Lea Hall, Coventry Rd and Liverpool St, BMMO built single deckers to Coventry Rd, Lea Hall and Yardley Wood, Midland Red nationals to Liverpool St and Leyland Leopard single deckers to Yardley Wood. For a while it was possible to catch Red BMMO built vehicles on ex Birmingham Corporation routes.
thanks busfan i really am learning things about wmpte and midland red :D
4586n - 4590n which were located at sheepcote street in 1975 were they rehoused at lea hall on the 16th november 1975
4586-4589 were at LH in March 1977, 4590 was at Cleveland Rd, Wolverhampton
Quote from: busfan2847 on May 04, 2016, 12:26:13 AM
4586-4589 were at LH in March 1977, 4590 was at Cleveland Rd, Wolverhampton
Are you sure re 4590? I have 4590-4599 at Coventry Road (CR) and 4596-89; 4600-05 at Lea Hall (LH) in 1977. The batch of 20, 4586-4605 started on former Midland Red services (possibly removing D9s) - does anyone know which garages they were split between, and which ones went where? I thought it was Sheepcote St, Sutton and (possibly) Moseley Road, having seen various photos on service 118 (4586-4590) and Sutton services?
I have a WMPTE & MR fleetlist from 1978 they list as follows:
4586-4589 LH
4590-4599 CR (Cov Road)
4600-4605 LH
I think the confusion is that when Cov Road closed Cleveland Road adopted the CR garage code as I have seen fleetlines & Metrobuses with the radio disc with CR or PL
4590 was a very late survivor, It moved from Coventry Road to Washwood Heath on the closure of Coventry Road, and one of only two 45xx at WH to survive D-Day in 1986 along with 4599. It was a flying machine as well, my favourite WH bus for driving in 1986
Addressing a few points:
4586n - 4590n which were located at sheepcote street in 1975 were they rehoused at lea hall on the 16th november 1975
Yes.
4590 was at Cleveland Rd, Wolverhampton
Are you sure re 4590? I have 4590-4599 at Coventry Road (CR)
4590 moved on to CV 11/76
The batch of 20, 4586-4605 started on former Midland Red services (possibly removing D9s) - does anyone know which garages they were split between
Initial allocations:
SH: 4586-90/5-7
MR: 4591-4/8-605
I think the confusion is that when Cov Road closed Cleveland Road adopted the CR garage code
Coventry Rd was always CV.
Cleveland Rd was CL until 9/75, it's allocation was then combined with BS & recoded CR.
i also remember 5 cotteridge based buses operating at lea hall in the early 1980s i think the numbers were 3795 - 3799 all had 2 door format any ideas
Quote from: iansdavies on May 04, 2016, 10:07:24 PM
i also remember 5 cotteridge based buses operating at lea hall in the early 1980s i think the numbers were 3795 - 3799 all had 2 door format any ideas
3781-3.
Quote from: dave47549 (no longer NEL111P) on May 04, 2016, 10:03:42 PM
Addressing a few points:
4586n - 4590n which were located at sheepcote street in 1975 were they rehoused at lea hall on the 16th november 1975
Yes.
4590 was at Cleveland Rd, Wolverhampton
Are you sure re 4590? I have 4590-4599 at Coventry Road (CR)
4590 moved on to CV 11/76
The batch of 20, 4586-4605 started on former Midland Red services (possibly removing D9s) - does anyone know which garages they were split between
Initial allocations:
SH: 4586-90/5-7
MR: 4591-4/8-605
I think the confusion is that when Cov Road closed Cleveland Road adopted the CR garage code
Coventry Rd was always CV.
Cleveland Rd was CL until 9/75, it's allocation was then combined with BS & recoded CR.
Thanks for the clarification. One other point - you say 4590 moved to CV at 11/76 - was this on closure of Sheepcote St or was there an interim allocation?
Quote from: don on May 04, 2016, 11:59:25 PM
Thanks for the clarification. One other point - you say 4590 moved to CV at 11/76 - was this on closure of Sheepcote St or was there an interim allocation?
4590 went to LH along with 4586-9, as per my original reply.
did any ailsa volvo double deckers operate on the meadway in the 1970s ie 169 and 193 .
From my memory the answer would be no.
they used to operate on the 195 and for a time the 99 which was the 195's replacement when Sutton Coldfield had a share of these routes as well as services 162 (later becoming 962) and 93, 94.