I wonder if any other bus company / or parties will put in a complaint/comment to the Oft about the situation in RH?
KR wont be an issue with competition from Whittle's
Any investigation or restrictions imposed could potentially cause Diamond problems,
RNS Number : 6718C
Office of Fair Trading
18 April 2013
Invitation to Comment
Completed acquisition by The Diamond Bus Company Limited of the bus business of FirstGroup plc in Redditch and Kidderminster
The Office of Fair Trading is considering whether this agreement has resulted in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002 and, if so, whether the creation of that situation has resulted, or may be expected to result, in a substantial lessening of competition within any market or markets in the United Kingdom for goods or services.
Affected sector: bus services
Please send written representations about any competition or public interest issues to:
Carlos MartÃnez Rico
Office of Fair Trading
Fleetbank House
2-6 Salisbury Square
London EC4Y 8JX
Email: carlos.martinez@oft.gsi.gov.uk
Fax: 020 7211 8916
to arrive by 2 May 2013.
Rotala have had to give initial undertakings to the Oft that they wont intergrate the former First businesses any further in to the existing Diamond RH business, they'll be no staff changes, no route/frequency changes which will more than likely also result in no fleet investment or repaints of former First vehicles until the Oft confirm whether or not there will be an investigation or the outcome of the investigation is known
http://oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/undertakings-2013/Diamond_First_IUs.pdf
RNS Number : 6883C
Office of Fair Trading
18 April 2013
Initial undertakings
The OFT accepted, on 15 April 2013, hold separate undertakings given by Rotala plc and The Diamond Bus Company Limited under section 71 of the Enterprise Act 2002. The undertakings are without prejudice to OFT's ongoing investigation into the completed acquisition by The Diamond Bus Company Limited of the bus business of FirstGroup plc in Redditch and Kidderminster.
The text of these undertakings has been placed on the Office of Fair Trading's website at http://oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/mergers/register/Initial-undertakings/diamond
Its a bit late as first are moving on and have got things planned with the spare Enviro 300s they have and if they have to have RH back we will only have 10 DDs and 3 enviros :o
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Its a bit late as first are moving on and have got things planned with the spare Enviro 300s they have and if they have to have RH back we will only have 10 DDs and 3 enviros :o
And diamond have got the citybuses and presidents up for sale!
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Its a bit late as first are moving on and have got things planned with the spare Enviro 300s they have and if they have to have RH back we will only have 10 DDs and 3 enviros :o
Any outcome will not effect First as Rotala now own both garages. Worst case scenario Rotala will be forced to divest the former First RH or its own Red Diamond operation similar to what Stagecoach had to do with Preston Bus. It's more likely that Rotala may have to give certain undertakings regarding maintaining current frequencies / routes & fares. It largely depends on if anyone comments/complains to the Oft, and the reasons for the complaint and whether or not the Oft will investigate. I had thought this far down the line that Rotala weren't going to attract interest.
In the meantime Rotala/Diamonds hands are tied while they await a decision being made to investigate the takeover and the outcome of the investigation if that is the chosen course of action
Quote from: Peter123 on April 18, 2013, 05:17:18 PM
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Its a bit late as first are moving on and have got things planned with the spare Enviro 300s they have and if they have to have RH back we will only have 10 DDs and 3 enviros :o
And diamond have got the citybuses and presidents up for sale!
Reading the undertakings in more detail, Rotala will have to take them off the for sale list for the foreseeable. They are now not allowed to dispose of them.
I'm not certain, but the undertakings also read along the lines that Rotala's RH operation will need to be split back in to two separate operations?
I don't know how keeping the 'First R & K' business separate will be done, but I would expect that Rotala bought on the assumption that the OfT would probably issue an invitation to comment (at least).
Stagecoach did not have to wait many weeks before the outcome was decided in the North West, so I hope this is decided soon - and that no further action is necessary.
Hopefully the acquisition will be allowed-MPs and councillors seem in favour-then diamond can get on with running an integrated transport network for redditch
Quote from: Winston on April 18, 2013, 06:27:49 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on April 18, 2013, 05:17:18 PM
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Its a bit late as first are moving on and have got things planned with the spare Enviro 300s they have and if they have to have RH back we will only have 10 DDs and 3 enviros :o
And diamond have got the citybuses and presidents up for sale!
Reading the undertakings in more detail, Rotala will have to take them off the for sale list for the foreseeable. They are now not allowed to dispose of them.
I'm not certain, but the undertakings also read along the lines that Rotala's RH operation will need to be split back in to two separate operations?
How blumming heck is that going to happen as Diamond would have to move buses into a different pool and which ones do you move. Also this is just going to hinder them as they need to be able to say at somepoint right we are going to scrap all the timetables and release new ones which will sort out some of the problems. I bet its our bloodly MP who can't keep her trap shut, saying its got worse there is no light at the end of the tunnel and we need better.
This is just going to put a nail in the coffin as people have got used to using Diamond buses and now they are going to be using Diamond and what ever Rotala call the exFMR segment, also staff from Diamond will have to transfer with buses, this is not well thought out at all.
You say that Peter but our (redditchs) MP has a happy nack of saying things when she has already agreed to something. ie at the start she was fine with it but now maybe not, and she knows where and when to say it to course trouble.
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 07:11:10 PM
Quote from: Winston on April 18, 2013, 06:27:49 PM
Quote from: Peter123 on April 18, 2013, 05:17:18 PM
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 05:12:11 PM
Its a bit late as first are moving on and have got things planned with the spare Enviro 300s they have and if they have to have RH back we will only have 10 DDs and 3 enviros :o
And diamond have got the citybuses and presidents up for sale!
Reading the undertakings in more detail, Rotala will have to take them off the for sale list for the foreseeable. They are now not allowed to dispose of them.
I'm not certain, but the undertakings also read along the lines that Rotala's RH operation will need to be split back in to two separate operations?
How blumming heck is that going to happen as Diamond would have to move buses into a different pool and which ones do you move. Also this is just going to hinder them as they need to be able to say at somepoint right we are going to scrap all the timetables and release new ones which will sort out some of the problems. I bet its our bloodly MP who can't keep her trap shut, saying its got worse there is no light at the end of the tunnel and we need better.
This is just going to put a nail in the coffin as people have got used to using Diamond buses and now they are going to be using Diamond and what ever Rotala call the exFMR segment, also staff from Diamond will have to transfer with buses, this is not well thought out at all.
You say that Peter but our (redditchs) MP has a happy nack of saying things when she has already agreed to something. ie at the start she was fine with it but now maybe not, and she knows where and when to say it to course trouble.
It does seem like unnecessary bureaucracy and quango intervention-as has been discussed on here before, the oft and the like really do not seem to have a clue when it comes to buses. I just hope that the oft don't look on diamond's facebook page at all the people saying things have got worse because that could really harm diamond's presentation in the eyes of the oft. Diamond have tried hard with the new businesses transferring far better buses in than first did and I hope the acquisition will go ahead as planned.
Quote from: Peter123 on April 18, 2013, 07:40:20 PM
Quote from: tank90 on April 18, 2013, 07:11:10 PM
How blumming heck is that going to happen as Diamond would have to move buses into a different pool and which ones do you move. Also this is just going to hinder them as they need to be able to say at somepoint right we are going to scrap all the timetables and release new ones which will sort out some of the problems. I bet its our bloodly MP who can't keep her trap shut, saying its got worse there is no light at the end of the tunnel and we need better.
This is just going to put a nail in the coffin as people have got used to using Diamond buses and now they are going to be using Diamond and what ever Rotala call the exFMR segment, also staff from Diamond will have to transfer with buses, this is not well thought out at all.
You say that Peter but our (redditchs) MP has a happy nack of saying things when she has already agreed to something. ie at the start she was fine with it but now maybe not, and she knows where and when to say it to course trouble.
It does seem like unnecessary bureaucracy and quango intervention-as has been discussed on here before, the oft and the like really do not seem to have a clue when it comes to buses. I just hope that the oft don't look on diamond's facebook page at all the people saying things have got worse because that could really harm diamond's presentation in the eyes of the oft. Diamond have tried hard with the new businesses transferring far better buses in than first did and I hope the acquisition will go ahead as planned.
Most of the business can probably easily be separated. The only service not totally clear is the 57/58, but if the timetable has not been changed, there are presumably ex-First and 'native Diamond' duties - if so, no problem I would think.
its the 51 57 and 58 and these time tables have been slightly tinkered with not much but tinkered all the same. Red Diamonds 51 was de registered so it would need to be re registered, the 57/58(A) have been combined in a weird way that would make it confusing for Staff if spilt up.
Quote from: Peter123 on April 18, 2013, 07:40:20 PM
It does seem like unnecessary bureaucracy and quango intervention-as has been discussed on here before, the oft and the like really do not seem to have a clue when it comes to buses. I just hope that the oft don't look on diamond's facebook page at all the people saying things have got worse because that could really harm diamond's presentation in the eyes of the oft. Diamond have tried hard with the new businesses transferring far better buses in than first did and I hope the acquisition will go ahead as planned.
Ultimately, the deal has left Rotala/Diamond with a monopoly over Redditch town services, Redditch passengers have no option but to use Rotala services as there are now no alternatives. I suspect that fares weren't increased because of a potential threat of an Oft investigation, I'm surprised its took this long for the Oft to become interested. The same concerns apply to Rotala in Redditch as did to Stagecoach in Barnstable, NXWM have about 80% of the West Midlands bus market, but I should imagine with Rotala in Redditch that percentage will be much higher.
Diamond still seem to be having capacity problems & large gaps in service (particularly on the 57/58), now the Oft are considering investigating, Diamond will be able to change very little in the business. I can't see Diamond being forced to separate the two fleets at present as they have already been merged in to Plymouth Road depot, I'll be surprised if there many fleet changes for the time being and any planned repaints of ex First vehicles will no doubt be suspended
Well there are roughly 28 standard services in Redditch looking at WCCs website this includes 55a 56a 58a 70a and a few others. Out of those 28, 16 are solely run by Diamond, so working on that 42.86% of services are not run by Diamond. Now I could go further in the brake down to see with every number if its still that percentage.
After alittle more playing around there is 37 seperate boards if you like, out of those 22 are a Diamond service the pertage that is NOT Diamond is 40.54% so its still far less than NXWM. The sad thing is if you look at PVRs than thats where it goes to pot as Diamond rocket out ahead, but in terms of services its still a fraction of the services in Redditch.
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 02:15:22 PM
After alittle more playing around there is 37 seperate boards if you like, out of those 22 are a Diamond service the pertage that is NOT Diamond is 40.54% so its still far less than NXWM. The sad thing is if you look at PVRs than thats where it goes to pot as Diamond rocket out ahead, but in terms of services its still a fraction of the services in Redditch.
Fair enough, I guess it all depends on how the market share percentages are measured. I would have thought that it would be more likely based on percentage of revenue derived from Redditch. Although there are more services/operators than I had appreciated, Diamond take the lion's share of revenue with the high frequency town services
To be honest the number of operators makes for a short list Stagecoach Midland Red South, The Green Bus, Diamond, RBC Community Travel (aka dial-a-ride Redditch), Whoosh, Johnsons, NN Creswell, A&G Group and Dudleys.
I think there has been mail dropping on the OFTs mat at Worcester and they are looking into it now.
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 04:34:10 PM
To be honest the number of operators makes for a short list Stagecoach Midland Red South, The Green Bus, Diamond, RBC Community Travel (aka dial-a-ride Redditch), Whoosh, Johnsons, NN Creswell, A&G Group and Dudleys.
I think there has been mail dropping on the OFTs mat at Worcester and they are looking into it now.
To be honest, the fact the Oft hadn't piped up & Rotala had proceeded to merge the two operations in to Plymouth Rd, I'd thought they had got away it. Especially as Diamond has de-registered their own 51 on the day/day prior to the First RH takeover. Had the transfer from First to Diamond gone more smoothly with fewer complaints they may well have done.
I agree, if rotala had got the buses it has got now back when they Launched the new Redditch network this wouldnt oof happened, by that I include all the 7Blres they've got, I know that sounds selfish of Redditch but Midi buses dont really work here unless you have a few and a high frequency timetable and more importantly drivers which is something that plagded First in Redditch and will do so for Rotala.
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 05:03:19 PM
I agree, if rotala had got the buses it has got now back when they Launched the new Redditch network this wouldnt oof happened, by that I include all the 7Blres they've got, I know that sounds selfish of Redditch but Midi buses dont really work here unless you have a few and a high frequency timetable and more importantly drivers which is something that plagded First in Redditch and will do so for Rotala.
Diamond have the same problem in the West Midlands with poor vehicle allocations & too high a proportion on Midis at Tividale, with Solos & MPD's getting used on busy competing services such as the 4, 4H & 4M. they have been known to appear of the 56 as well. Hopefully the arrival of 10 x full size B7RLE at Tividale will help to start & rectify the imbalance.
You'd have thought with 15 x Trident/Presidents (10 x ex First & 5 ex Preston) that they should be able to use those efficiently to shift any crowds at peak times, maybe they need to have a couple of buses on standby to fill large gaps in service when they form or to act as duplicates to relieve overcrowding, even if management/inspectors have to muck in & drive them to provide a better service. They have now had 7 weeks, you'd have thought by now Rotala would know which routes/duties are likely to have capacity issues and allocated the bases they accordingly
you know what thought did, naffer all.
yes they may have 15 DDs but peak times are wierd in the ditch, school chucking out time every route with a school gets busy then you have school buses which DDs are used and you begin to see 15 isnt that much.
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 05:22:55 PM
you know what thought did, naffer all.
yes they may have 15 DDs but peak times are wierd in the ditch, school chucking out time every route with a school gets busy then you have school buses which DDs are used and you begin to see 15 isnt that much.
So how come First didn't have the overcrowding issues then, especially as Diamond have 5 more deckers? As I understand if the only Red Diamond Pvr reduction has been the withdrawal of the 51, all other services have the same number of buses operating as when Diamond & First were completing head to head. I know First had more full size single deckers, but that shouldn't have made that much difference
Sadly yes it does make that much of a difference as First had more Full size singles. There was over crowding on the Singles as well at somepoints with a full FMR DD an over crowded FMR SD and an over crowded Red Diamond SD, so if you try and put them onto the current buses you'll have a job. Also the three step DDs were used as well so Diamond have 2 extra as I havent seen the 3 step DDs for awhile.
The point is the people moaned about First being late and over crowded but never sad it to loudly, poor Diamond have had the full brunt of it all and seem to not be able to right for wrong. As far as the 57 and 58 go you need i hate to say it bendi buses again, and people will have to put up with standing or tram it but it would be fully street trams.
I have saw some photos lately of the 57/58 services been operated by a mixture of buses darts, presidents, mcv evolution, centro's. Are the b7rle's still the common vehicle type on this service or is it a mixture.
Every thing goes on the 57 58 Solo Midi Dart Dart Centro MCV E300 7BLre Presidents.
The problem is you have to have DDs for most if not all the time as you have 2 sets of 57 and 58 s running into 1 set which will course some problems.
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 10:19:40 PM
Sadly yes it does make that much of a difference as First had more Full size singles. There was over crowding on the Singles as well at somepoints with a full FMR DD an over crowded FMR SD and an over crowded Red Diamond SD, so if you try and put them onto the current buses you'll have a job. Also the three step DDs were used as well so Diamond have 2 extra as I havent seen the 3 step DDs for awhile.
The point is the people moaned about First being late and over crowded but never sad it to loudly, poor Diamond have had the full brunt of it all and seem to not be able to right for wrong. As far as the 57 and 58 go you need i hate to say it bendi buses again, and people will have to put up with standing or tram it but it would be fully street trams.
If the Redditch services can be that busy, how come First were making a loss? Was it KR that turned the two garages loss making.
Unfortunately for bus operators that have Facebook pages, it's a lot easier for people to publically complain, with others jumping on the bandwagon.......
I went on one of those MAN/D.A.B Bendibuses Midland Red @ Redditch when I was on kid on the Matchborough Circulars:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55074400@N05/5227292316
There are plenty of former London Merc Citaro artics laying around gathering dust
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 10:47:57 PM
The problem is you have to have DDs for most if not all the time as you have 2 sets of 57 and 58 s running into 1 set which will course some problems.
So have Diamond also reduced the number of buses operating the 57/58?
I.e. First & Red Diamond both used to provide a 10min frequency, have Diamond now done away with one of the set of workings so that the 57/58 is still only 10 min frequency with one set of buses less? If that is the case effectively Red Diamond with its 51, 57 & 58 no longer exists
If that's the case, no wander they are having problems, wouldn't the simplest solution be increase the frequencies of the one remaining set of 57/58's too run every 7/8 mins, that would help solve some capacity issues & you still make a saving on the number of buses required compared to when both operators competed head to head
Diamond have had the problem of loosing drivers so there has been service cuts because not all the First drivers transfered and also some just left on hand over day then hence Diamond have advertised for drivers, there has been some tividale drivers move to redditch and some long acre too. The problem is if thats happened a bigger bus is needed, and a bendi is bigger so if you have less drivers then a bigger bus is better.
I suppose until diamond get the all clear about their operations in Redditch and Kidderminster it will remain like this until the timetables can be changed and amended to resolve the issues that I'm 100% sure diamond know about but at the moment have little choice in terms of investment in double deckers or increasing the number of vehicles on services until the go ahead is given.
Quote from: Ash on April 19, 2013, 11:32:05 PM
I suppose until diamond get the all clear about their operations in Redditch and Kidderminster it will remain like this until the timetables can be changed and amended to resolve the issues that I'm 100% sure diamond know about but at the moment have little choice in terms of investment in double deckers or increasing the number of vehicles on services until the go ahead is given.
I couldnt agree more poor Diamond cant do right for doing wrong which is unfair.
People moaned about the Preston Bus operation when Rotala took over it from Stagecoach now reading the route one magazine article this week they can't praise enough what rotala has achieved in such a short amount of time and it actually reveals how bad of a state it was when Rotala took over Preston Bus. I'm sure the same will follow with Redditch and Kidderminster given time.
http://www.route-one.net/issues/483/index.html#/1/
Quote from: tank90 on April 19, 2013, 11:39:32 PM
Quote from: Ash on April 19, 2013, 11:32:05 PM
I suppose until diamond get the all clear about their operations in Redditch and Kidderminster it will remain like this until the timetables can be changed and amended to resolve the issues that I'm 100% sure diamond know about but at the moment have little choice in terms of investment in double deckers or increasing the number of vehicles on services until the go ahead is given.
I couldnt agree more poor Diamond cant do right for doing wrong which is unfair.
It hasn't yet to been decided if the Oft are even going to investigate, that decision will largely depend on what if any complaints/concerns are made/raised, by who & why?
Diamond can still make changes to improve the current services provided, but they now have to seek concent from the Oft before implementing any changes. What they can't do is cut any overlapping services any further or proceed any further with merging the two businesses. They could still draft in spare buses from within Diamond to increase capacity, approx 10 will be surplus once all the B7RLE's enter service at Tividale
Its not just buses in some cases tho Winston its the lack of drivers too. if they could get more buses and drivers theyll be laughing to the bank thats why they ve changed the number of vehicals allowed at plymouth RD so they could laugh to the bank and the same with kidder.
Quote from: tank90 on April 20, 2013, 12:02:37 AM
Its not just buses in some cases tho Winston its the lack of drivers too. if they could get more buses and drivers theyll be laughing to the bank thats why they ve changed the number of vehicals allowed at plymouth RD so they could laugh to the bank and the same with kidder.
Judging by some of the recent comments on FB, they need to loose some of the drivers they have got at present
I have never really had any problem with any of the drivers at Tividale or Long Acre and the comments on facebook are all one side of the story it doesn't say exactly how the passenger reacted just apparently how the driver did and whatever the driver has said is probably blown out of proportion to get the passengers point across on facebook.
Quote from: Ash on April 20, 2013, 12:09:43 AM
I have never really had any problem with any of the drivers at Tividale or Long Acre and the comments on facebook are all one side of the story it doesn't say exactly how the passenger reacted just apparently how the driver did and whatever the driver has said is probably blown out of proportion to get the passengers point across on facebook.
The comments are currently all in relation to Redditch
Errrm there are some drivers (ex Red/Black Diamond) who could do with being a little more fermer with passageners as in tell people to move down the bus. Some of Firsts are and have been grumpy for years, I mean the ex MRW/FMR drivers I know by name are the types of drivers who are kind and nothing is ever to much unless you start taking the micheal then they get alittle angry.
Some times people who complain on FB over egg what has happened, and dont tell the hole story they miss out major details. Its like Thursday I could have complained about a driver if i had wanted to, but I couldnt see the point as he wasnt to blame totally he could have told the kids at the front of the bus to move down abit but that was up to him.
Quote from: Winston on April 20, 2013, 12:20:32 AM
Quote from: Ash on April 20, 2013, 12:09:43 AM
I have never really had any problem with any of the drivers at Tividale or Long Acre and the comments on facebook are all one side of the story it doesn't say exactly how the passenger reacted just apparently how the driver did and whatever the driver has said is probably blown out of proportion to get the passengers point across on facebook.
The comments are currently all in relation to Redditch
Yeah and also mainly about the 57/58 service. Never used the diamond services in Redditch or Kidderminster but in my opinion the facebook wall is not the appropriate place to leave comments like some people have been.
Some are just tit for tat, what it is the people on the 57 58 have gotten so used to just balling out and a bus not being that far off, where as the rest of Redditch know a timetable is a fairy tale. Even Worcestershire County Council have turned off there Departure board in the Bus Station.
Quote from: tank90 on April 20, 2013, 12:30:11 AM
Some are just tit for tat, what it is the people on the 57 58 have gotten so used to just balling out and a bus not being that far off, where as the rest of Redditch know a timetable is a fairy tale. Even Worcestershire County Council have turned off there Departure board in the Bus Station.
I've noticed that the majority of complaints relate to the 57/58, I guess they are Redditch's main/high frequency services though
only beacuse it covers a good half of the town, but all services at peak times for each service can be packed I've seen a 70 with a Volvo 7blre with all seats taken and people standing its the fact Redditch is if you like a City Town in that is very unpredictable and at times you can get tumble weed but if spread out it would be a steady flow.