West Midlands Bus Partnership to End

[Simon Dunn]

I still don't understand why Diamond is pulling out of the existing partnership routes when there is not an agreed new partnership or other arrangement planned - perhaps @Simon Dunn could comment? I am guessing it simply isn't viable and is costing them - a shame, really if that is the case.

In my response 

« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 06:17:56 AM »

I said the following

In late 2019 we started the discussion around partnership reform with TfWM.  A 20% passenger decline, the impact of inflation since will result in its current form at least a 20% loss.

[Steveminor]

A victim of their own success, benefactors of others short comings, predatory bad guy, call them what you will. The problem is that with such a high dominance and with their own ticket range of the same dominance we have lost a lot of the innovation that we once had. The national bus strategy dies state the government does not want to lose the entrepreneurial spirit that de regulation has bought.
We have to tackle these thorny issues of ticketing and quickly for operators and passengers benefit or clearly the only model that will work is franchising.

[j789]

A victim of their own success, benefactors of others short comings, predatory bad guy, call them what you will. The problem is that with such a high dominance and with their own ticket range of the same dominance we have lost a lot of the innovation that we once had. The national bus strategy dies state the government does not want to lose the entrepreneurial spirit that de regulation has bought.
We have to tackle these thorny issues of ticketing and quickly for operators and passengers benefit or clearly the only model that will work is franchising.

I'm not quite sure NXWM would describe themselves as the victim! It seems from your statement above is purely based on your own companies not being able to compete so you looking for a way to increase the success of those companies. Please tell me one positive for passengers that your suggestion of multiple operators has? All I have heard so far are reasons that would be positive for your company's bottom line, nothing that actually would benefit passengers more than what they have now.

As for innovation, I have seen very little innovation off any other company in the West Midlands, including larger operators like Stagecoach. NXWM has innovated with route changes, eg X51, x20/21/22. They also introduced the £1 inner city fare. They have introduced electric and gas buses into the West Midlands, soon to be joined by Hydrogen buses too. They went fully accessible across their networkin 2010, before other big areas like Manchester- that is innovation. The Sprint services are the next step in this innovation. (Even the changes to the 11a/c show innovation to solve the age old problem on that route of delays and bunching).

Likewise, I don't think certain companies in the past running 2 minutes in front of the main operator is innovation, just profit chasing and offering no benefits to passengers. Running clapped out darts and Leyland Nationals was not innovation. The only independent that showed any real innovation since deregulation was Yourbis with their new routes, some of which are still run (76 for example). Why doesn't your company try running new routes and offering new connections, that would be innovative.

We're you involved with Pete's travel at some point I seem to remember reading here (apologies if not)? They did the usual competitor trick of running just in front of the opposition. I look at the poor transport network offered in Redditch now, this was a direct result of them competing with First and dragging everything down to bottom in terms of standards. Compare what was around in that area in the 1990s with what they have now with diamond? Only 1 bus an hour to Birmingham, etc. Competition certainly did that area no favours and it's a joke if you think certain companies ever offered innovation. They didn't. I seem to remember 20 or so years ago Birmingham Coach trying to run Ludlows out of business bu operating a few minutes in front on their routes. So I wouldn't even say Diamond could take credit for the 002 route, it was Ludlows creation.

You describe an image of a broken transport system in the West Midlands. It is not broken at all, you only need to look over the border to Worcestershire to see a real broken system.

[andy41]

A very one eyed view of the direction of travel for the West Midlands network of bus operators, or rather what's left of it. Many of the 'innovations' you refer to on NXWM's part (Sprint, zero emissions buses) are as a result of bid wins or tendered initiatives where public money has been made available and an operator appointed via its business case. In many cases smaller operators or even medium sized ones wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance of shifting NX from pole position for these schemes as they wouldn't have the time, resource or reach to prepare viable bids for them, hence the happy monopoly they find themselves in today. The only reason NX would have gone into a partnership arrangement with another operator in the first place was to reduce their PVR on those routes whilst still selling products online that guarantee them revenue whilst actually operating less buses. No wonder they were so keen.

As Simon said earlier, a reform of the all operator ticketing scheme which is now nbus would have meant many more of the good, innovative smaller operators being retained. The local transport authority appeared to wilfully destroy the product over the years leaving the door wide open for NX to loss lead it out of relevance. The reform was needed years and years ago and sadly it's probably too late now. The reimbursement rates further suffered when the all operator schemes moved over to digital products. It's quite ironic that the LA spent years investing in the upgrading of that product and persuading other operators to integrate it whilst significantly reducing reimbursements to the point where the passenger was barely worth claiming for. Meanwhile the NX product marched on unhindered.

The result is now a largely useless multi operator product that nobody buys, needs or uses and coupled with the double whammy of hundreds of thousands of pounds wasted by the LA altering it and reinventing it and upgrading it whilst at the same time making it utterly irrelevant.

Only when the LA faces up to this and addresses it will operators turn their attentions to being innovative. Meanwhile any fortunate survivors just attempt to float.

[Westy]

Dunno if I've missed this.

We know Diamond is amending their timetable,  but is Nx amending theirs as well?

[j789]

A very one eyed view of the direction of travel for the West Midlands network of bus operators, or rather what's left of it. Many of the 'innovations' you refer to on NXWM's part (Sprint, zero emissions buses) are as a result of bid wins or tendered initiatives where public money has been made available and an operator appointed via its business case. In many cases smaller operators or even medium sized ones wouldn't have had a cat in hells chance of shifting NX from pole position for these schemes as they wouldn't have the time, resource or reach to prepare viable bids for them, hence the happy monopoly they find themselves in today. The only reason NX would have gone into a partnership arrangement with another operator in the first place was to reduce their PVR on those routes whilst still selling products online that guarantee them revenue whilst actually operating less buses. No wonder they were so keen.

As Simon said earlier, a reform of the all operator ticketing scheme which is now nbus would have meant many more of the good, innovative smaller operators being retained. The local transport authority appeared to wilfully destroy the product over the years leaving the door wide open for NX to loss lead it out of relevance. The reform was needed years and years ago and sadly it's probably too late now. The reimbursement rates further suffered when the all operator schemes moved over to digital products. It's quite ironic that the LA spent years investing in the upgrading of that product and persuading other operators to integrate it whilst significantly reducing reimbursements to the point where the passenger was barely worth claiming for. Meanwhile the NX product marched on unhindered.

The result is now a largely useless multi operator product that nobody buys, needs or uses and coupled with the double whammy of hundreds of thousands of pounds wasted by the LA altering it and reinventing it and upgrading it whilst at the same time making it utterly irrelevant.

Only when the LA faces up to this and addresses it will operators turn their attentions to being innovative. Meanwhile any fortunate survivors just attempt to float.

Please name these former 'innovative' companies. Apart from the already mentioned Yourbus and Ludlows, which other companies in the West Midlands in the last 35 years have been innovative, rather than just chosen to run 2 minutes in front of WMT/TWM/NXWM. If you think any of those other companies would have offered a better service over these years than that provided by NXWM, that is laughable in the extreme.

I have used a regular bus user in the West Midlands since the 1980s and worked in the industry in Worcestershire for many years too. I am so Pro-NXWM because what they offer is superior to most other places around Britain. Passengers benefit from having one known operator, they don't want multiple operators.

[Simon Dunn]

Please name these former 'innovative' companies. Apart from the already mentioned Yourbus and Ludlows, which other companies in the West Midlands in the last 35 years have been innovative, rather than just chosen to run 2 minutes in front of WMT/TWM/NXWM. If you think any of those other companies would have offered a better service over these years than that provided by NXWM, that is laughable in the extreme.

I have used a regular bus user in the West Midlands since the 1980s and worked in the industry in Worcestershire for many years too. I am so Pro-NXWM because what they offer is superior to most other places around Britain. Passengers benefit from having one known operator, they don't want multiple operators.

My responses and comments have been made to put the record straight on our position, why we have exited the partnership agreements and my own personal view of the future.  I prefer not to critique other operators.  No Operator is perfect, and I am certain every comment made whether that be about running buses in front of other peoples services, more or less anything can be levelled at every operator at some point in their past.

What is inevitable whether anyone likes it or not, change is coming.  The National Bus Strategy and the Bus Services Act sets the tone for this.  I have offered my opinion for what it is worth. 

[andy41]

Please name these former 'innovative' companies. Apart from the already mentioned Yourbus and Ludlows, which other companies in the West Midlands in the last 35 years have been innovative, rather than just chosen to run 2 minutes in front of WMT/TWM/NXWM. If you think any of those other companies would have offered a better service over these years than that provided by NXWM, that is laughable in the extreme.

I have used a regular bus user in the West Midlands since the 1980s and worked in the industry in Worcestershire for many years too. I am so Pro-NXWM because what they offer is superior to most other places around Britain. Passengers benefit from having one known operator, they don't want multiple operators.

This is a nonsense argument. The competition at the times you describe was based on frequency gaps and price point. Operators saw the former TWM main corridors as underbussed and overpriced, so they put an offer out there. It was taken up by customers who wanted high frequency and value for money. In many cases, both operators benefitted from an increase in footfall.

NX later decided to counter this. Not by running buses 2 minutes in front of the other operator, but by flooding the routes with extra frequency and PVR and slashing the fare offer. It's the same trick in different clothes and I'm not complaining about it, but you can't see that.

NX's employment of these tactics, their loss leading on commercial products and a very helpful LA who continually made sure the price point for the all operator product was set above the NX product, whilst also decreasing reimbursements across the board in real terms, soon culminated in an unviable operating territory for anyone that wasn't NX.

The reward for the customer was then realignment of the NX services that remained away from inconvenient sections of route that tied the bus up and created extra PVR that they could then save by sticking to main roads and expecting customers to walk.

So please take your rose couloured spectacles off.

[Trident 4194]

Please name these former 'innovative' companies. Apart from the already mentioned Yourbus and Ludlows, which other companies in the West Midlands in the last 35 years have been innovative, rather than just chosen to run 2 minutes in front of WMT/TWM/NXWM. If you think any of those other companies would have offered a better service over these years than that provided by NXWM, that is laughable in the extreme.

I have used a regular bus user in the West Midlands since the 1980s and worked in the industry in Worcestershire for many years too. I am so Pro-NXWM because what they offer is superior to most other places around Britain. Passengers benefit from having one known operator, they don't want multiple operators.

Central connect used to run the 192 Birmingham- Kidderminster and the 123 Merry Hill- Perry Barr. And can I remind you that the 417 now 4H was a ludlows route that got taken over when diamond took over. Nx are the ones that have jumped to compete on the 4H. Do we need nx on the 4H? @j789

[D10]

Central connect used to run the 192 Birmingham- Kidderminster and the 123 Merry Hill- Perry Barr. And can I remind you that the 417 now 4H was a ludlows route that got taken over when diamond took over. Nx are the ones that have jumped to compete on the 4H. Do we need nx on the 4H? @j789

Well, the 123 and 192 were both tenders so there was no innovation there, they just won the contracts from Centro and Worcestershire respectively.

[j789]

Central connect used to run the 192 Birmingham- Kidderminster and the 123 Merry Hill- Perry Barr. And can I remind you that the 417 now 4H was a ludlows route that got taken over when diamond took over. Nx are the ones that have jumped to compete on the 4H. Do we need nx on the 4H? @j789

I said Ludlows were an innovative company (and yourbus) but no one has so far given any other examples!!! 123 was ex midland red routes combined. In fact the 'Red' were probably best placed to have competed against WMT but they messed up.

As for the 4H, NXWM don't need to be on there no. But equally then do Diamond need to be on the part of the 4 route from West Brom to Walsall? Or the 16? Or the 50? They have NXWM buses up to every 4 minutes, they really don't need to be on there too but they are and it still works as the status quo is now.  That is not a realistic suggestion to make about the 4H as it's not for any route with competition. It's the survival of the fittest, adapt or fail.

[j789]

This is a nonsense argument. The competition at the times you describe was based on frequency gaps and price point. Operators saw the former TWM main corridors as underbussed and overpriced, so they put an offer out there. It was taken up by customers who wanted high frequency and value for money. In many cases, both operators benefitted from an increase in footfall.

NX later decided to counter this. Not by running buses 2 minutes in front of the other operator, but by flooding the routes with extra frequency and PVR and slashing the fare offer. It's the same trick in different clothes and I'm not complaining about it, but you can't see that.

NX's employment of these tactics, their loss leading on commercial products and a very helpful LA who continually made sure the price point for the all operator product was set above the NX product, whilst also decreasing reimbursements across the board in real terms, soon culminated in an unviable operating territory for anyone that wasn't NX.

The reward for the customer was then realignment of the NX services that remained away from inconvenient sections of route that tied the bus up and created extra PVR that they could then save by sticking to main roads and expecting customers to walk.

So please take your rose couloured spectacles off.

Rose tinted spectacles may be put aside! Please list these routes you say NXWM have removed to inconvenience passengers? Most of the cases you discuss need to look at the bigger picture. Is it better to inconvenience a small section of passengers by making the route more reliable by missing out certain sections and thus benefitting 95% of the other passengers on the route? I think so and clearly the increased passenger numbers on these high frequency corridors (pre-COVID) proved that. Sometimes, decisions have to be taken for the greater good.

I would say from your previous posts you are very anti - NXWM so maybe we balance the world out in our stances. However, I see a network of services that cater for the vast majority of the West Midlands travelling public, clearly you don't but I really can't see why.

[2206]

Rose tinted spectacles may be put aside! Please list these routes you say NXWM have removed to inconvenience passengers? Most of the cases you discuss need to look at the bigger picture. Is it better to inconvenience a small section of passengers by making the route more reliable by missing out certain sections and thus benefitting 95% of the other passengers on the route? I think so and clearly the increased passenger numbers on these high frequency corridors (pre-COVID) proved that. Sometimes, decisions have to be taken for the greater good.

I would say from your previous posts you are very anti - NXWM so maybe we balance the world out in our stances. However, I see a network of services that cater for the vast majority of the West Midlands travelling public, clearly you don't but I really can't see why.

I agree. Lots of innovation from NX X20/X21/X22, X51, Platinum, Electric Buses etc.

Meanwhile take a look at Discount Travel Solutions on the 11C, you can catch one of their buses one way, yet can't even return on them the other way. And they are timetabled to run at random times of day with a big gap for lunch in the middle of the day, with a couple of  old darts. An operator who lack any innovation at all I think.
Or that extremely scruffy looking E200 vehicle in London livery that Evergreen had on the 28A today in comparison to even the older buses in the fleet Geminis/Omnilinks/Tridents that NX run. The same E200 bus doesn't even have a working destination display on it.
Operators like Sunny Travel & Joes Travel who ran step entrance vehicles for many years after NX.

Claribels have an every 18 minute frequency (not even clock face frequency) on a main road corridor where NX fequency is much higher, and another operator who schedule a gap in service for lunch as if nobody needs to travel at that time of day, luckily nobody has to rely on them because NX continue to operate.
Lots of these small operators disappear after about 5/6PM as well, NX run a good service for the majority up until about midnight on most services.

[Steveminor]

Name other innovative operators. That's a challenge let's see.
Birmingham coach company, north Birmingham busways, Stevenson's, midland choice, Hansons, serverse Travel, Burman Travel, Frontline Buses, vanguard coaches.

Is that enough for you or do I keep going.

Oh & previous comment yes I did work for Pete's Travel 377X 452 628 & 96A were just a few of my innovations at that firm. Shall I go on.

As simon said every operator at some point gone head to head competing with another. At the time that's what deregulation was about operators competing to bring different benefits fares etc to the travelling public. Would you tell Morrisons they cant sell milk because Asda sell milk.

I was asked & answered as honestly as I can what I believe is the best way to put the entrepreneurial spirit back into the bus network whilst providing a good network that works for both operators and travelling public. This in my opinion is what the national bus strategy is looking to do.

Covid has given this push to provide a better network & there are many challenges yet to come for the bus industry to regain lost patronage, whatever happens it's going to be a very interesting new normal.

Let's not look back now on who did what to who & let's solve these challenges & come up with arrangements that allow ALL operators to survive & grow profitably whist giving passengers a joined up network

[Solo1]

Wonder if walsall community transport will repaint their buses if west Midlands bus
is coming to an end