Unnecessary routes

[Ossie]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

[MW]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

Of course there is a need. These 9** routes operate a high joint frequency up to Sutton, then a 30 minute frequency (I think) to the surrounding areas, so they have a link with Sutton Coldfield Centre, as well as Birmingham.

[Tony]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

As reards the original quote, amazing isn't it, we have some people on another thread saying double decks are not needed on the 451 and this saying it is overcrowded.

With the 915, if it was withdrawn there would need to be another bus to fill its pace as far as Sutton anyway. Birmingham to Sutton justifies a 7/8 minute frequency, take the 915 out you get a 15 minute gap which would need filling. You also then withdraw the service between Falcon Lodge and Sutton Coldfield Girls School. And several other stops. So yes the 915 is justifield

[Ash]

It's just what people have saw in terms of passenger numbers on the 451, as i only see the 451's that depart West Brom generally there not that full but thats because between West Brom and all saints way you have the 404,410 and 451 and between West brom and the scott arms you have the 406 along the Newton Road whereas from Sutton Coldfield there the only or at least the most regular bus service to Kingstanding and the Pheasy so will likely to have more passengers. If people see the buses leaving sutton coldfield they are sure to have a different opinion of the route. Also im sure most people beyond the scott arms would not choose west brom to shop at lol when they have the option of Walsall, Sutton Coldfield or Birmingham also are there any other routes that get reduced from all double deckers throught out the day to single decker in the evening (mercs from the daytime 410). Also today around 11am i saw a president by all saints way with a full lower deck and about 10 to 15 people upstairs but then followed it was another president that had abotu 5 people on altogether, so to me this would show 20 minutes worth of passengers for the 451 leaving west brom.

[andy]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

As reards the original quote, amazing isn't it, we have some people on another thread saying double decks are not needed on the 451 and this saying it is overcrowded.

With the 915, if it was withdrawn there would need to be another bus to fill its pace as far as Sutton anyway. Birmingham to Sutton justifies a 7/8 minute frequency, take the 915 out you get a 15 minute gap which would need filling. You also then withdraw the service between Falcon Lodge and Sutton Coldfield Girls School. And several other stops. So yes the 915 is justifield

Hi Tony..

My original comments regarding the 68, that then led onto Ossie's points, are instigated by a longstanding belief of mine that NXWM have for some considerable time treated Sutton Coldfield like a sideshow and bi product. It is provided for by a mish mash of services operated by various garages with no particular interest or relevance in the area.

You mention the links between Falcon Lodge and Sutton Girls School for instance, and your example offers a rare insight into the sort of demand planning and locally focussed network design that are required...rare because there aren't any others that have been investigated or applied. I offer the 68 debacle as an example...it provided links all over the place that are no longer available and was replaced by stop gaps that simply plug demand on the main corridors..this is not the innovation that is required.

Sutton just gets whatever is cobbled together to suit the networks that make up the other end of it's routes, or through services, and is therefore at the mercy of whatever is happening in the city centre, or Walsall, or West Bromwich, or Chelmsley Wood. Reliability and frequency is non existent due to this. There is no local operation and there are never any roadside staff in Sutton to coordinate anything, not that they would be able to even if they were there; they too would be at the same mercy as they would have to wait for vehicles from elsewhere.  Sutton is treated similarly by Centro with it's appalling lack of interchange facilities.

I wish an operator would come in and decamp this shambles and focus a proper network on the area. When Rotala first took over Connect, it looked like they might be the ones but sadly their operation has now descended into a shadow of what was intended at the time.

[Tony]

You are way off the mark with some of your comments. One of TWMs first actions after privatisation in 1986 was to create a network of local services covering all parts of Sutton Coldfield using 36 Freight-Rover Sherpas fleetnumbers 501-536 (D501-36NDA). It was a massive failure with a drop in passenger numbers,lots of complaints asking for links from all parts of Sutton direct to Birmingham which is what TWM soon replaced the minibus network with and basically is still what is running today, hence the 'mish mash of services.

As for regulation, there is a route manager dedicated to the Sutton Corridor and an Inspector permanently watching those service. I was on the rota for about 8 months, so have a good knowledge of the problems and what passengers actually want. This brings me to the 68. A really useful service, but never very profitable and an absolute nightmare to try to keep to time. With no terminal point and passengers always on board it was very difficult to get a bus back on time once it was late. It wasn't unknown for 3 of the 5 buses on one ring to catch each other up and leave an hour gap. The only way to cure it was to get two buses together deliberately, throw all the passengers off one onto the other and send the empty bus to where it should be.

The other thing to remember about a place like Sutton is well off areas very rarely make lots of money for bus companies. It is far easier for a bus company to make money in Birmingham inner-city than Sutton Coldfield. This also explains why there is such a concentration of service to Falcon Lodge, about the only less well off part of Sutton

[andy]

You are way off the mark with some of your comments. One of TWMs first actions after privatisation in 1986 was to create a network of local services covering all parts of Sutton Coldfield using 36 Freight-Rover Sherpas fleetnumbers 501-536 (D501-36NDA). It was a massive failure with a drop in passenger numbers,lots of complaints asking for links from all parts of Sutton direct to Birmingham which is what TWM soon replaced the minibus network with and basically is still what is running today, hence the 'mish mash of services.

As for regulation, there is a route manager dedicated to the Sutton Corridor and an Inspector permanently watching those service. I was on the rota for about 8 months, so have a good knowledge of the problems and what passengers actually want. This brings me to the 68. A really useful service, but never very profitable and an absolute nightmare to try to keep to time. With no terminal point and passengers always on board it was very difficult to get a bus back on time once it was late. It wasn't unknown for 3 of the 5 buses on one ring to catch each other up and leave an hour gap. The only way to cure it was to get two buses together deliberately, throw all the passengers off one onto the other and send the empty bus to where it should be.

The other thing to remember about a place like Sutton is well off areas very rarely make lots of money for bus companies. It is far easier for a bus company to make money in Birmingham inner-city than Sutton Coldfield. This also explains why there is such a concentration of service to Falcon Lodge, about the only less well off part of Sutton

I know all about the minibus network but I think that was more a victim of the awful vehicles that many operators invested faith in at the time, rather than the actual network.

You are right about the problems on the 68 with timekeeping, but route adjustments could have helped and they went from one extreme to the other by withdrawing the whole thing overnight and then providing panic solutions to the shortfalls created (or in some cases none atall)

I also understand your point regarding the traditional view of Sutton being too well off for buses, but unfortunately this just isn't the case anymore I'm afraid and is a pretty snobbish outlook if that is what those in charge think.

NXWM still seem to be operating according to this philosophy with a network of services that virtually began in the mid 80's bar a few minor adjustments and renumberings. I also understand that profit wise it is easier to operate in high density areas of less well off areas....but both of these tendencies are short sighted I'm afraid. The bus industry should be working hard to attract new passengers in areas such as this instead of tapping into the same old cash cow.

I don't think you have considered all of my original points to be honest.

[Ossie]

Tony / Andy, thanks for your comments; the minibus network is an interesting bit of history I wasn't aware of (as I was living in the West Country back then and my "local" network there was operated by Safeway Services of South Petherton, who even ran one particular route, hilariously, with a one out and one back trip timetabled for "every alternate Tuesday",  but that's another story!)  ;D

I'm intrigued by the mention of a FR Sherpa network; can I pick your brains on this?.  Was it like a hail-and-ride, or were there set routes? What routes were operated, where were the boundaries of the operation - is today's 604 a legacy of that network?  Was it a high-density operation like the Exeter City minibus network, sort of thing? 

From what I can recall, the West Country minibus networks (Exeter, Taunton (?), Weymouth) boosted passenger numbers to the extent that single-deckers (Leyland Nationals) eventually had to replace the minibuses, so it's interesting it failed in Sutton Coldfield - although I entirely take your point about "well heeled areas" .......

[andy]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/4652135685/

The 604 is indeed a bit of a hangover from this network Ossie, although not quite so commercially designed hence the subsidy required. There were varying hangovers from this network over the following years, mainly operated by smaller or competing operators on a tendered basis...There is no doubt that the original WMT network didn't pay but that was 25 years ago!

Incidentally, the main reason WMT devised that operation was due to the threat of Midland Red North planning something similar, as they had done in Walsall much to WMT's annoyance. It was never going to pay but was more a defence tactic.

The problem is that the Sutton services went from being locally focussed to entirely City service focussed..at the time virtually everyone in Sutton commuted to Birmingham so this made sense, but things are a bit different these days...unfortunately the bus network hasn't adapted accordingly.

[Ossie]

The problem is that the Sutton services went from being locally focussed to entirely City service focussed..at the time virtually everyone in Sutton commuted to Birmingham so this made sense, but things are a bit different these days

Absolutely, since (around) 1992, we've had the Cross City line .....  ;D

And thanks for that photo of 512 - so it was Hail and Ride - when the light is on!!  Innovative to say the least!

[Tony]

The bit about Sutton being a well off area isn't so much about actual wealth of the residents or the ability to attract better off people on to buses, it is more about density of housing and main passenger flows.

For example serving Perry Barr, high density housing and nearly everyone wants to go to Birmingham City Centre.

Streetly has been a nightmare to try and serve for a long time and has never been able to produce profitable bus services even though some parts are not as well off as other. The reason for this is not everyone wants to go to one place. An area with a reasonably low level of unemployment means buses buses only fill during peaks and there is a need for people to go to Walsall, Birmingham & Sutton, but not enough to need high frequency service which are what will attract the extra passengers. High frequency better quality peak buses to Birmingham was tried with the 995, 996, 997 when originally launched but failed financially. Minibuses were tried before that with the Metroriders. Higher frequency dedicated buses cleaned more often was tried with the realaunch of the 377 with refurbished B10Ls failed. Walsall are now trying the 935 with brand new buses, so it is not as if all the things tried around the country haven't been tried.

The current Main road Sutton service of providing a 7/8 minute frequency between Birmingham and Sutton and then splitting up to go to the three main areas seems to be the only way profitable buses can be run. If there was a need for any links not provided why aren't any other operators jumping in?

[RW]

Not strictly on topic but since the 107 became the limited stop 907 the service has deteriorated with unreliable timekeeping and long waits even at the Birmingham city centre terminal. If you're waiting on the Sutton side of New Oscott for a 907 to Birmingham you can go anywhere provided its to Walsall or West Brom!!

[Nathan4775]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

The 914 doesnt serve erdington & the 115 take upto 40 mins to get to Falcon Lodge were as the 915 takes upto 20/25 minutes, quite a few people would miss out onm the 915, plus the 914 & 915 dont serve the same roads in Falcon Lodge neither

[MW]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

The 914 doesnt serve erdington & the 115 take upto 40 mins to get to Falcon Lodge were as the 915 takes upto 20/25 minutes, quite a few people would miss out onm the 915, plus the 914 & 915 dont serve the same roads in Falcon Lodge neither

He didn't say the 914 went through Erdington. Will you read the post properley next time as it saves a lot of hassle!

[Nathan4775]

Running the 71A, combined with the changes that had to be made to the 66 and 966, and the resulting overcrowding of the 451 between Oscott and Sutton have probably created cost not too far short of running the 68, which I feel could have been rescued with some frequency and route alterations...but no, let's throw some more buses onto the Sutton - Birmingham road to run behind each other virtually empty.....

Andy posted this on another thread and it rather chimed in with something I was going to post anyway - is the 915 (Birmingham - expressway - Sutton - Falcon Lodge) really necessary?

The route is duplicated by others with high frequency virtually throughout, except for a small stretch in Falcon Lodge estate.

Falcon Lodge already has two links to central Birmingham which arguably are more direct - the 914 (via Expressway) and 115 (through Aston) which give a combined 15m frequency, and it also linked to Sutton via Good Hope by Blue Diamond's 119 (amongst others) again on a 15m frequency.

So is there really any need for the 915?

And are there any other routes you can think of that are effectively "overkill"?

The 914 doesnt serve erdington & the 115 take upto 40 mins to get to Falcon Lodge were as the 915 takes upto 20/25 minutes, quite a few people would miss out onm the 915, plus the 914 & 915 dont serve the same roads in Falcon Lodge neither

He didn't say the 914 went through Erdington. Will you read the post properley next time as it saves a lot of hassle!

Wouild you just stop commenting, that would also save me the hassle