With the advent of contactless on buses, do you think Swift PAYG is getting obsolete? Or do you think the scheme could be improved?
Compared to its contemporaries, such as the Oyster card in London, Swift PAYG is less useful than contactless. Example of it is on NXWM buses, Swift does not cap, instead a passenger is required to use their PAYG credit in order to travel, whereas NXWM contactless works as a cap, so for 2 journeys at £2.40, a saving is being automatically made.
A flaw that swift has which London's Oyster card is that PAYG is not enabled for rail journeys within the WM region, yet in London, Oyster can work out and deduct fares for rail journeys by tapping on and off. In my opinion, TfWM need to make the ntrain zones work for PAYG, and get all 4 WM rail (and WMM for the Hawthorns to City section) to have a zonal fare policy with common fares on sections they share, and capping to replace paper daytrippers and returns for journeys wholly in the 7 district's.
Plus now, for Metro, you have Swift on Mobile which links in with Google Pay. With contactless on the rise, and most of the population using smartphones, could introducing a flat fare (example £1.30 children, £2.60 adults) on buses across the region and forcing all operators in the WMCA sphere (including those who operate in the "associate members") to adopt a common ticketing solution work to make Swift better integrated across the bus network, or even render it obsolete in favour of mobile ticketing for period passes and contactless payments. This could include daily caps which would replace operator only daysavers/nbus.
Another thing could be added to a daily cap scheme is parking with the 7 district's using car parks as a park and ride site where people tap in at a car park barrier, park up, board a nearby existing bus route which runs anyway to the nearest of the 3 city centres (with the bus+parking fee being capped, and councils free to put more restrictive pro bus TROs in the town/city centres - if PAYG was being used, tapping out to exit the car park?)
What do you think? Could Swift be improved, or could it be rendered obsolete by Contactless and mobile.
The main issue is the minimum top up is set to £25 which triggers if I recall as soon as your card balance is due to fall under £5. For the occasional traveller, this could mean a large cash balance sitting on the card. Hardly 'Pay as you go'...
Swift PAYG is not quite obsolete yet as there are still operators who accept Swift but don't accept contactless payments.
As far as I am aware, only NX Bus and Diamond currently accept contactless payments, unless the likes of Arriva, Stagecoach and First do as well. I'm pretty sure many other smaller operators don't yet, happy to be corrected by the way.
But I agree that Swift PAYG would be more beneficial (to the likes of me anyway) if it worked more like how the Oyster card does in London.
I think the problem is that in London as its all franchised out and run centrally by TFL its easier for them to collect all the fare revenues and then 'divvy' them out to the various contracted operators. Whereas here in the West Midlands, most of our services are run by private companies who would prefer to collect and retain their own revenues.
Personally I would prefer a situation where I have my current NX Bus Swift card, loaded with my NX Bus direct debit season ticket, which allows me unlimited travel on NX buses, but then be able to also have - on the same card - a PAYG balance for use on other operators services, including tram and train, which would then be capped at the appropriate daily rate, for those odd occasions where I find myself using another operator's bus or making a journey by tram or train.
Quote from: Stu on July 04, 2019, 08:39:02 PM
Swift PAYG is not quite obsolete yet as there are still operators who accept Swift but don't accept contactless payments.
As far as I am aware, only NX Bus and Diamond currently accept contactless payments, unless the likes of Arriva, Stagecoach and First do as well. I'm pretty sure many other smaller operators don't yet, happy to be corrected by the way.
We accept contactless on first midlands buses and many people now use it (probably 1/3 of paid fares) We also accept Swift card for all tickets, I had a few passengers recently who bought day tickets to Worcester from Birmingham on it so it is useful.
Quote from: Stu on July 04, 2019, 08:39:02 PM
As far as I am aware, only NX Bus and Diamond currently accept contactless payments, unless the likes of Arriva, Stagecoach and First do as well. I'm pretty sure many other smaller operators don't yet, happy to be corrected by the way.
Arriva do accept contactless as they have recently upgraded to ticketer machines.
I would suggest that Swift could be improved by extending it to cover a larger area e.g being valid on services that start out of the NWM boundary such as the 9 or the 891.
Surprised they haven't sorted out the train part after all this time!
I have an NX Regio'al Travelcard with Metro add on. But I also have a Swift PAYG card which I use if I haven't yet renewed my Travelcard which for me works fine.
I wouldn't ever touch an M-ticket if you paid me. It's quite a regular occurrence now to see people saying they've got an M-ticket but their phones dead, maybe that's just the pessimist/realist in me.
I too wouldn't touch them. I prefer to have a paper ticket at all times.
Not sure how recently this was but concessionary passes now have swift PAYG integrated into the card - is this paving the way for swift season passes to do the same?
Quote from: nathanielrwi on August 07, 2019, 06:53:21 PM
Not sure how recently this was but concessionary passes now have swift PAYG integrated into the card - is this paving the way for swift season passes to do the same?
Are these the current passes issued or are new ones being issued?
On behalf of my elderly mother, how do you tell the difference?
@Westy the TfWM website says:
"
All Concessionary Travel Passes now have Swift Pay As You Go (PAYG) included.
This means you can load PAYG credit on to your Travel Pass to pay for journeys when your pass is not valid on the bus and tram, so there's no need to carry the correct change (not currently accepted on trains).
To activate your PAYG you will need to register your Travel Pass and load on some credit."
I assume that only newer passes have PAYG built in and that you'd have to contact TfWM to check if its available?
Quote from: nathanielrwi on August 08, 2019, 07:02:20 PM
@Westy the TfWM website says:
"All Concessionary Travel Passes now have Swift Pay As You Go (PAYG) included.
This means you can load PAYG credit on to your Travel Pass to pay for journeys when your pass is not valid on the bus and tram, so there’s no need to carry the correct change (not currently accepted on trains).
To activate your PAYG you will need to register your Travel Pass and load on some credit."
I assume that only newer passes have PAYG built in and that you'd have to contact TfWM to check if its available?
The PAYG will be enabled at a 'system' level. As your quote states "All Concessionary Travel Passes now have Swift Pay As You Go included".
One just needs to register their Travel Pass on the Swift website then credit can be loaded.
https://www.networkwestmidlands.com/swift/swift-for-you/concessionary-payg/
Quote from: Ashley 60171 on July 07, 2019, 10:29:18 AM
....
I wouldn't ever touch an M-ticket if you paid me. It's quite a regular occurrence now to see people saying they've got an M-ticket but their phones dead, maybe that's just the pessimist/realist in me.
Do drivers not challenge that?
Quote from: Kevin on August 20, 2019, 12:13:59 PM
Do drivers not challenge that?
I don't. I'm not paid to inspect tickets. I'm not having a bad day having an argument with some people we carry, getting sworn or spat at
Quote from: Kevin on August 20, 2019, 12:13:59 PM
Do drivers not challenge that?
Most don't challenge anything these days.
On 4491 this evening the driver let a group of men just walk straight on without showing a ticket of any form, without challenging it. Seen it happen a number of times now. They got on at the City Centre stop travelling to the Sladefield Road stop on the Washwood Heath Road. There seems to be quite a few faredogers who use this stop at Sladefield Road.
Used a PAYG swift today on the bus and apprently you no longer get a discount from 2nd January. Anybody knowwhats going on? If there is no discount then what is the purpose of the swift?
Quote from: Sandy Lane on January 06, 2020, 06:08:09 PM
Used a PAYG swift today on the bus and apprently you no longer get a discount from 2nd January. Anybody knowwhats going on? If there is no discount then what is the purpose of the swift?
I've never seen the point of Swift PAYG once contactless became popular
Quote from: Tony on January 06, 2020, 06:10:35 PM
I've never seen the point of Swift PAYG once contactless became popular
There are still a number of smaller operators that don't yet accept contactless payments though.
And not everyone has a contactless card yet.
But I agree, once all operators accept contactless payments, then Swift PAYG will be pretty much redundant.
Quote from: Sandy Lane on January 06, 2020, 06:08:09 PM
Used a PAYG swift today on the bus and apprently you no longer get a discount from 2nd January. Anybody knowwhats going on? If there is no discount then what is the purpose of the swift?
All discounts for contactless and Swift PAYG fares have been removed, so all 'cash fares' are the same price regardless of how you pay.
Quote from: Stu on January 06, 2020, 06:26:42 PM
There are still a number of smaller operators that don't yet accept contactless payments though.
And not everyone has a contactless card yet.
But I agree, once all operators accept contactless payments, then Swift PAYG will be pretty much redundant.
If you don't want a contactless debit/credit card you can go to the post office and purchase a card with money pre loaded on to it, and it works in shops as well as buses so much more useful than swift PAYG
Quote from: Sandy Lane on January 06, 2020, 06:08:09 PM
Used a PAYG swift today on the bus and apprently you no longer get a discount from 2nd January. Anybody knowwhats going on? If there is no discount then what is the purpose of the swift?
My understanding is that once multi operator fare capping is introduced in the West Midlands, this will only be able to be introduced on Swift (not contactless bank cards)
Quote from: Tony on January 06, 2020, 06:10:35 PM
I've never seen the point of Swift PAYG once contactless became popular
Just showing your post
@Tony to someone who is very proud of his Swift scheme and the 50 million users in 2019 they cannot all have made the wrong decision.could they as ever only NXWM could diss the largest transport payment system outside London and the rollout I have just been told continues next with Kevs.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 07, 2020, 08:00:00 AM
Just showing your post @Tony to someone who is very proud of his Swift scheme and the 50 million users in 2019 they cannot all have made the wrong decision.could they as ever only NXWM could diss the largest transport payment system outside London and the rollout I have just been told continues next with Kevs.
There's nowhere near 50million PAYG users
Quote from: Tony on January 07, 2020, 08:52:22 AM
There's nowhere near 50million PAYG users
The gentleman I am with seems to be under the impression.Swift was used 50 million times last year.
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 07, 2020, 08:58:19 AM
The gentleman I am with seems to be under the impression.Swift was used 50 million times last year.
Perhaps you might ask him how many PAYG
Quote from: Tony on January 07, 2020, 09:08:15 AM
Perhaps you might ask him how many PAYG
You have stumped him there! A lackey is looking into it !!!!
As
@metrocity pointed out fare capping is due to be released soon on swift so is definitely worth keeping your pay as you go cards for that plus some other exciting things are planned for swift.
Quote from: Steveminor on January 07, 2020, 10:08:21 AM
As @metrocity pointed out fare capping is due to be released soon on swift so is definitely worth keeping your pay as you go cards for that plus some other exciting things are planned for swift.
One of the biggest gripes & have been discussing this, this morning is SwiftPAYG not being able to load N bus products as there is no photo while the e daysaver swift cannot load payg or n bus so a customer could end up holding 3 different swift cards and then we have Swiftcards issued by NXWM that cant be topped or have products added by TfWM something which regrectable and someone I spoke to this morning who is very into Swift wasnt aware there are so many different versions which are not conpatible with each other.
At the end of the day I don't want a contactless bank card as I think they can cause trouble for you in the long run, and there are probably more people than just me who think it.
The time and expense that it has cost and design the Swift system means that ditching it after such a short time would be so wasteful.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 07, 2020, 01:07:37 PM
At the end of the day I don't want a contactless bank card as I think they can cause trouble for you in the long run, and there are probably more people than just me who think it.
The time and expense that it has cost and design the Swift system means that ditching it after such a short time would be so wasteful.
I'm all for the swift scheme for passes, but I have never had a single person use PAYG when I have been driving and even in London use of Oyster for PAYG is dropping like a stone now
Quote from: richardjones210368 on January 07, 2020, 10:44:43 AM
One of the biggest gripes & have been discussing this, this morning is SwiftPAYG not being able to load N bus products as there is no photo while the e daysaver swift cannot load payg or n bus so a customer could end up holding 3 different swift cards and then we have Swiftcards issued by NXWM that cant be topped or have products added by TfWM something which regrectable and someone I spoke to this morning who is very into Swift wasnt aware there are so many different versions which are not conpatible with each other.
That is a point I have brought up before. I myself have a Swift card loaded with my NX Regional Faresaver pass, but I think it would be useful to be able to load credit for the occasional PAYG journey on other operators buses, because I'd rather not have to carry two seperate Swift cards around, and make sure I don't use the wrong one!
But having said that, as Diamond are probably the only other operator I really use (for the odd journey on the 50), I just use my contactless bank card to pay for those journeys, so is probably a moot point now.
Quote from: Stu on January 07, 2020, 07:09:46 PM
That is a point I have brought up before. I myself have a Swift card loaded with my NX Regional Faresaver pass, but I think it would be useful to be able to load credit for the occasional PAYG journey on other operators buses, because I'd rather not have to carry two seperate Swift cards around, and make sure I don't use the wrong one!
But having said that, as Diamond are probably the only other operator I really use (for the odd journey on the 50), I just use my contactless bank card to pay for those journeys, so is probably a moot point now.
Yes sometimes you don't want your bank cards on you though or cash such as me at the baths tonight but you can still order at Spoons later on the app on my way home mind you that is also another option with the bus phone apps. Blimey
@Stu ever since my epiphany on WMT today suddenly you are all coming out of the closet on Rotala I think I may have taken the wrong approach on this forum since joining but being involved so much in politics the confrontational approach just comes naturally in debate but perhaps it wasn't wise on your excellent wmbusphoto.com forum which has been clearly pointed out to me today by the great and the good of Brum!
Swift was obsolete before it had even launched and was/still is years behind Oyster. They should have skipped Swift and invested quicker in to contactless payment with capping.
Things will move past contactless payment cards quickly with ApplePay, GooglePay etc. and other digital wallets becoming much more popular as these can not only replace payment cards but also loyalty cards, bus tickets and much more. Tap your phone and go!
You also have to unlock the keypad (pin/pattern or other protection) so is more secure than contactless it confirms the user before payment.
Everyone carries there phone with them everywhere as well.
In two days of doing mainly local work and one trip to brum I've had two people use
Payg
More and more using contactless
We would never be told but I wonder what percentage of people now
1. Pay by cash
2. Use Swift
3. Use Contactless
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on January 17, 2020, 04:00:09 PM
We would never be told but I wonder what percentage of people now
1. Pay by cash
2. Use Swift
3. Use Contactless
I suggest you make a Freedom.of Information request to.the West Midlands Combined Authority for the information.requested.