Quote from: Demonstrator4698 on October 20, 2015, 10:29:06 AM
4698 is a tricky bus to catch because you never know what route it will turn up on. its my favourite E400 and it sounds amazing. its such a shame that next year, euro 2's and euro 3 buses aren't allowed into the city centre.
It will be from May 2017, not next year
Euro 3's are allowed in to City Centre from that date, but on low frequency routes only.
Quote from: Winston on October 20, 2015, 10:31:15 AM
It will be from May 2017, not next year
Euro 3's are allowed in to City Centre from that date, but on low frequency routes only
Does that date apply to both single and double deckers?
Quote from: Sh4318 on October 20, 2015, 09:07:36 PM
Does that date apply to both single and double deckers?
I believe single deckers may be earlier than that date, with double deckers by May 2017
Quote from: Winston on October 20, 2015, 09:10:50 PM
I believe single deckers may be earlier than that date, with double deckers by May 2017
I've heard
@Tony say something about a little object in the exhaust that can make a bus suitable to be allowed in the city centre on higher frequency routes.
Quote from: ronnoc1k8 on October 20, 2015, 09:34:45 PM
I've heard @Tony say something about a little object in the exhaust that can make a bus suitable to be allowed in the city centre on higher frequency routes.
I heard that, although it's around £20,000 to fit one per bus
Quote from: Sh4318 on October 21, 2015, 01:08:42 AM
I heard that, although it's around £20,000 to fit one per bus
Equinox do a particulate trap for around £15,000 that can make vehicles the equivalent of Euro 6
Quote from: Tony on October 21, 2015, 07:16:27 AM
Equinox do a particulate trap for around £15,000 that can make vehicles the equivalent of Euro 6
That's quite an achievement from fitting the dpf trap to a euro 3 engine I assume there would be software changes as well , I assume most gems and enviros still have at least 5 to 8 years service in them to warrant the expense if need be.
DPF filter got a longer life than the ones fitted to diesel cars...
Anyone know the technology behind these traps you'll know they only burn off diesel particles if the engine has been running fast (at speed, motor way driving whatever) for a while (1hr or around).
So I'm struggling to see how these bus ones, except for being commercial as opposed to domestic (cars)
Quote from: Liverpool Street on October 21, 2015, 03:10:26 PM
DPF filter got a longer life than the ones fitted to diesel cars...
Anyone know the technology behind these traps you'll know they only burn off diesel particles if the engine has been running fast (at speed, motor way driving whatever) for a while (1hr or around).
So I'm struggling to see how these bus ones, except for being commercial as opposed to domestic (cars)
Although these traps may allow a number of existing Euro 3 buses to be used beyond the May 2017 cut off date within the City Centre SQPS Zone on higher frequency routes. Ultimately, the buses that could be retro-fitted with these traps will still not be as fuel efficient / lighter weight as brand new Euro 6 counterparts. I'd assume no buses older than 2003/4 would be considered for retrofitting, otherwise the traps will be worth more than the bus itself.
Quote from: Winston on October 21, 2015, 03:37:29 PM
Although these traps may allow a number of existing Euro 3 buses to be used beyond the May 2017 cut off date within the City Centre SQPS Zone on higher frequency routes. Ultimately, the buses that could be retro-fitted with these traps will still not be as fuel efficient / lighter weight as brand new Euro 6 counterparts. I'd assume no buses older than 2003/4 would be considered for retrofitting, otherwise the traps will be worth more than the bus itself.
Why not fit them to all the fleet i.e. euro 3 4 5 and 6 as it might make them all cleaner in the long run, or have i missed something along the line.
Quote from: tank90 on October 21, 2015, 05:58:25 PM
Why not fit them to all the fleet i.e. euro 3 4 5 and 6 as it might make them all cleaner in the long run, or have i missed something along the line.
You missed the extra £23.1 Million you would need to pay for it i.e. £15k x 1540 buses.
Quote from: Winston on October 21, 2015, 06:01:26 PM
You missed the extra £23.1 Million you would need to pay for it i.e. £15k x 1540 buses.
Oh yeah the price of health for those of us with asthma lol ;-)
I mean the cost to fit to the fleet..... sorry.
Quote from: tank90 on October 21, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
Oh yeah the price of health for those of us with asthma lol ;-)
I mean the cost to fit to the fleet..... sorry.
And what about the millions of cars ?? I doubt it would make an noticeable benefit
Quote from: Winston on October 21, 2015, 06:26:41 PM
And what about the millions of cars ?? I doubt it would make an noticeable benefit
Granted, but a bus thats idling pollutes a lot in a traffic jam. I know Cars and VW cars pollute a lot as well but surly bus builders should look at how they can build one that does the same and fit it as standard along with what they do now.
ps maybe this convo needs moving to a thread of its own so we don't fill the this thread with it.
Quote from: tank90 on October 21, 2015, 06:30:39 PM
Granted, but a bus thats idling pollutes a lot in a traffic jam. I know Cars and VW cars pollute a lot as well but surly bus builders should look at how they can build one that does the same and fit it as standard along with what they do now.
They do!
That's why buses are now Euro 6, cleaner than most small vehicles. That is why there are Hydrogen buses that emit Water & Electric buses that emit nothing at source
Also look at the amount of pollutants per person (capacity) & buses are much more environmentally friendly than most cars on the road.
Quote from: Liverpool Street on October 21, 2015, 03:10:26 PM
Anyone know the technology behind these traps you'll know they only burn off diesel particles if the engine has been running fast (at speed, motor way driving whatever) for a while (1hr or around).
DPFs burn the soot off either when the engine is run 'hard' and the exhaust gas temperature is high, or by use of an injector within the exhaust. This injects diesel which is burnt inside the exhaust to generate sufficient heat and is know as 'active regeneration'. Active regeneration is not favoured in buses as it leads to a huge amount of heat coming out of the exhaust pipe - not a good scenario in city centres and other urban areas. The economics of using diesel for anything other than powering the bus are also dubious at best, although I believe an active regen is much rarer than it was originally suggested they would be.
Soot is meant to be burned off, but ash also accumulates in the filter. This cannot be burned off and once there is so much of it in there, the filter needs to be cleaned. The presence of DPFs in Euro 6 buses is one of the reasons why engines have been downsized so much; they must work a lot harder than a 10- or 11-litre unit would, and so generate more heat to help the DPF work correctly. The exhaust size is also proportional to the engine size.
A blocked (even partially) DPF is not a good thing as it creates backpressure within the exhaust, worsening fuel efficiency. One full of soot is even worse, as it can potentially catch fire when the engine finally is run hard and destroy the filter at substantial cost.
The retrofit systems to bring older buses up to Euro 6 from Eminox, a Swiss company and one or two others use a DPF but also install an Ad-Blue dosing unit into the exhaust to deal with NOx. I haven't seen the others up close, but the Swiss installation is very slick.
Thank you for you that
@barry619 - it all seems very dodgy for an oldschooler like me
I'd rather the EU leave us well enough alone and I am dubious that global warming isn't a money making scheme by said governing body.
I'm not denying that global warming occurs naturally; maybe they're pushing it a bit harder then how bad it actually is.
Do you legit think the world would let itself get done over
Quote from: Liverpool Street on October 21, 2015, 09:11:56 PM
Thank you for you that @barry619 - it all seems very dodgy for an oldschooler like me
I'd rather the EU leave us well enough alone and I am dubious that global warming isn't a money making scheme by said governing body.
I'm not denying that global warming occurs naturally; maybe they're pushing it a bit harder then how bad it actually is.
Do you legit think the world would let itself get done over
I certainly think it's a money making scheme for bus manufacturers
@Liverpool Street , what's to say when a lot of operators are using Euro VI engines, that a EuroVII one won't be developed!
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 21, 2015, 09:19:20 PM
I certainly think it's a money making scheme for bus manufacturers @Liverpool Street , what's to say when a lot of operators are using Euro VI engines, that a EuroVII one won't be developed!
Does seem a bit dodgy but alas, that's the world now a days
Saying that remember Rover developing cars with built in faults which weren't covered under warranty.
And then there is those other manufacturers who made things too good and people wouldn't sell thier cars because they're solid!!
You can't win. But still, they keep moving the boundaries, can't cars be diverted away from the city centre instead? Oh wait... Car parks...........
Quote from: Liverpool Street on October 21, 2015, 09:30:14 PM
Does seem a bit dodgy but alas, that's the world now a days
Saying that remember Rover developing cars with built in faults which weren't covered under warranty.
And then there is those other manufacturers who made things too good and people wouldn't sell thier cars because they're solid!!
You can't win. But still, they keep moving the boundaries, can't cars be diverted away from the city centre instead? Oh wait... Car parks...........
And then there is Volkswagon, although I am sure that if the truth is known, there are other manufacturers out there who have done the same.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 21, 2015, 09:33:10 PM
And then there is Volkswagon, although I am sure that if the truth is known, there are other manufacturers out there who have done the same.
Sort of ironic in VW's position. They fitted these exhaust traps to get cheaper yearly tax and such, and yet when they went for MOT it was software which fixed the result anyway, surely that means that the DPF meant nothing
...
@Stuharris 6360
Quote from: Liverpool Street on October 21, 2015, 09:36:58 PM
Sort of ironic in VW's position. They fitted these exhaust traps to get cheaper yearly tax and such, and yet when they went for MOT it was software which fixed the result anyway, surely that means that the DPF meant nothing
... @Stuharris 6360
You never know
@Liverpool Street, maybe these trap things are just a red herring and the buses software is just altered to make it seem that emissions are lower, these days nothing would surprise me.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 21, 2015, 09:40:29 PM
You never know @Liverpool Street, maybe these trap things are just a red herring and the buses software is just altered to make it seem that emissions are lower, these days nothing would surprise me.
I honestly wouldn't put it past them
@Stuharris 6360 .
Literally it seems everything can be done on computers these days regarding performance and emissions ..
Only thing is just if they get caught then it'll cause issues.
Even so I don't see why buses aren't excluded somewhat from stringent measures like these, they are mighty machines but surely a larger, less laboured engine is better than a strangulated smaller unit with a massive turbo and endless filters which use tricks to burn off soot and all that ..
I'm still old school when it comes to this really . I'd like to see the true, real day to day difference to MPG between older less laboured , say , garderner unit to these computered slave 6 liter turbo things .
Didn't you have the actual figures
@Tony as I'd like to know how much 1 or 2 mpg means in company spendature in real terms ..
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 21, 2015, 09:19:20 PM
I certainly think it's a money making scheme for bus manufacturers @Liverpool Street , what's to say when a lot of operators are using Euro VI engines, that a EuroVII one won't be developed!
It's not a money making scheme for bus manufacturers as they don't set the standards; Euro 4, Euro 5 etc are all European emissions standards, regulated and defined by the EU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards
Quote from: Liverpool Street on October 21, 2015, 09:11:56 PM
Thank you for you that @barry619 - it all seems very dodgy for an oldschooler like me
I'd rather the EU leave us well enough alone and I am dubious that global warming isn't a money making scheme by said governing body.
It's important to remember that the Euro scheme (all the way to Euro 6) is not aimed at global warming. CO
2 production is directly relative to the amount of fuel burnt, and the various Euro emission legislation does not have any connection with a bus' CO
2 emissions. Rather, it is concerned with NOx and particulate matter, and the nastiness of NOx (oxides of nitrogen) in particular should not be underestimated. It is a killer, make no mistake about it, and diesel engines are the main culprit. This is one of the reasons why gas power is seeing a minor resurgence; gas doesn't produce NOx at all, and it is expected that when the winners of the government's latest funding round for low-emission buses are announced next year that gas will do well.
The other benefit of gas is that thanks to some well-oiled funding arrangements with the likes of the Gas Bus Alliance, it stands up commercially - unlike hybrids and full electric...
It has been suggested that there will be no Euro 7. Rather, there will be more emphasis on the bus' CO
2 emissions and a 'labelling' system will be introduced a la tyres. Of course, nobody knows for sure, but one of the large engine manufacturers takes the view that this will happen.
Quote from: Stuharris 6360I certainly think it's a money making scheme for bus manufacturers...
It absolutely is not a money making scheme for bus and coach manufacturers and you could not be more wrong in thinking that.
They have had to invest millions in redesigning vehicles, testing them and homologating them for Euro 6. It's not just engines which have had to be substantially upgraded/redesigned altogether; as Euro 6 needs to run hotter, cooling systems have had to be beefed up, space has had to be found for the chemical plants which masquerade as exhausts, the legally mandated on-board diagnostics have had to be accommodated... the list goes on. Of course, all those costs are passed on to the buyer, but to think that the likes of ADL, Wrights, Volvo and the various other builders are making more money out of Euro 6 is pie in the sky.
Excellent thread, good debate, welcomed relief from such crap on other threads.
Quote from: 2900 on October 23, 2015, 12:00:02 PM
Excellent thread, good debate, welcomed relief from such crap on other threads.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Some excellent information from
@barry619 about how the whole Euro engine debate works, proper facts, not just the usual uninformed rubbish.
Looks like I may be right in my prediction of gas doing well when the forthcoming LEB fund announcements are made. If Nottingham City Transport gets what it wants it will take 82 Enviro400 Scania gas 'deckers over three years...
https://www.nctx.co.uk/2015/11/nottingham-city-transport-bids-for-government-funding-for-25-5m-project-to-introduce-82-gas-double-deckers-to-the-city/ (https://www.nctx.co.uk/2015/11/nottingham-city-transport-bids-for-government-funding-for-25-5m-project-to-introduce-82-gas-double-deckers-to-the-city/)