In the old roller blind era, did any of these Birmingham City Centre short workings 'exist' & if so, how were they displayed?
Was a generic 'City Centre' displayed & the drivers told the passengers what's what?
Quote from: Westy on April 09, 2024, 05:50:11 PMIn the old roller blind era, did any of these Birmingham City Centre short workings 'exist' & if so, how were they displayed?
Was a generic 'City Centre' displayed & the drivers told the passengers what's what?
These short workings are in the main buses into the city centre finishing at the terminus and not continuing round a city centre loop. Going back many years the blinds on some routes were specific to the terminal point (e.g. City Navigation Street, City Paradise Circus), but most then moved to the genetic 'City Centre'. Where buses did a loop round the city centre, but were finishing at the terminus and not continuing round the loop to do the outbound journey, the driver would tend to set the blinds to 'Not in Service' (or for those of us old enough to remember, 'SPECIAL') when close the the city centre, to avoid people boarding for the outbound journey.
Quote from: Westy on April 09, 2024, 05:50:11 PMIn the old roller blind era, did any of these Birmingham City Centre short workings 'exist' & if so, how were they displayed?
Was a generic 'City Centre' displayed & the drivers told the passengers what's what?
In WMPTE days at least buses would show the exact destinations, such as 'Ethel Street', 'St Martins Circus' and 'Lancaster Circus'.
Until 1975 BCT and WMPTE South Division buses generally showed the outer destination in both directions. When that was finally changed, buses initially showed 'City Centre' only if doing the city loop (New St, Corporation St, Bull St, Colmore Row) - otherwise they displayed 'City Terminus'. In the late 1970s 'City Terminus' was replaced by more precise displays, such as 'City High Street' (with 'High' above 'Street').
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 09, 2024, 09:20:21 PMIn WMPTE days at least buses would show the exact destinations, such as 'Ethel Street', 'St Martins Circus' and 'Lancaster Circus'.
Until 1975 BCT and WMPTE South Division buses generally showed the outer destination in both directions. When that was finally changed, buses initially showed 'City Centre' only if doing the city loop (New St, Corporation St, Bull St, Colmore Row) - otherwise they displayed 'City Terminus'. In the late 1970s 'City Terminus' was replaced by more precise displays, such as 'City High Street' (with 'High' above 'Street').
Yes that's correct, up until that point the only buses to show 'City' were cross-city services that had the same service number in both directions especially when the service number and destination was on the same blinds, so if you was in Perry Barr and you saw a bus showing 'City' you knew it was either 29 or 29A (later 90/91) and not a 33
When the 21/22 City to Weoley Castle services were converted to driver only operation in 1971 drivers were instructed to show 'City' on inward journeys, the rest of the Birmingham services followed in 1974.
I'm sure I remember some city routes had different other letters to signify where in the city centre they stopped.
"E" was the exception and then there were others like D, and F that would indicate other curtailments.
I'll stand corrected and bow to greater knowledge on this.
Quote from: Wumpty on April 10, 2024, 11:00:35 AMI'm sure I remember some city routes had different other letters to signify where in the city centre they stopped.
"E" was the exception and then there were others like D, and F that would indicate other curtailments.
I'll stand corrected and bow to greater knowledge on this.
Yes, I recall 50K to Alcester Lanes End as a child in the seventies.
A list of the 50 variants on flickr from the sixties has some incredibly short journeys, such as 50A from City Centre to St. Martins Circus which can't have been more than a couple of stops
Quote from: Wumpty on April 10, 2024, 11:00:35 AMI'm sure I remember some city routes had different other letters to signify where in the city centre they stopped.
"E" was the exception and then there were others like D, and F that would indicate other curtailments.
I'll stand corrected and bow to greater knowledge on this.
The letter system was A to the nearest point to the City and the further along the route the further along the alphabet, the E for exception didn't start until 1974 when all the other letters stopes being used except for A and C for the 11 and 8 which also started in 1974.
Quote from: Wumpty on April 10, 2024, 11:00:35 AMI'm sure I remember some city routes had different other letters to signify where in the city centre they stopped.
"E" was the exception and then there were others like D, and F that would indicate other curtailments.
I'll stand corrected and bow to greater knowledge on this.
The Birmingham approach was to give each of the short workings a different letter with A closest to the city terminus and going upwards from there. On the 50 to Maypole letters reached 50K Alcester Lanes End. (50F was Moseley Village, 50J Kings Heath)
Quote from: busfan2847 on April 10, 2024, 05:03:15 PMThe Birmingham approach was to give each of the short workings a different letter with A closest to the city terminus and going upwards from there. On the 50 to Maypole letters reached 50K Alcester Lanes End. (50F was Moseley Village, 50J Kings Heath)
The 5 (Portland Road to Perry Common) went up to L (Perry Common/Enderby Road) which I think was the only service that did
Quote from: Steve3229vp on April 10, 2024, 05:45:08 PMThe 5 (Portland Road to Perry Common) went up to L (Perry Common/Enderby Road) which I think was the only service that did
The blinds only went up to L so that certainly was the route that went the furthest
Quote from: Steve3229vp on April 10, 2024, 05:45:08 PMThe 5 (Portland Road to Perry Common) went up to L (Perry Common/Enderby Road) which I think was the only service that did
There were a few others: 36L to Millhouse Road/Bierton Road, 48L to Maypole, 67L to Chester Road/Tangmere Drive, 90L to Lambeth Road/Queslett Road.
The letters D, G and I were not used, no doubt because they could have been mistaken for numbers.
It's worth pointing out that letters A, B and C (sometimes also others) were normally used for short workings from the outer terminus, not from city. For example, at the Maypole there was at least one 50B working to Rea Street/Digbeth.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 10, 2024, 09:40:57 PMThere were a few others: 36L to Millhouse Road/Bierton Road, 48L to Maypole, 67L to Chester Road/Tangmere Drive, 90L to Lambeth Road/Queslett Road.
The letters D, G and I were not used, no doubt because they could have been mistaken for numbers.
It's worth pointing out that letters A, B and C (sometimes also others) were normally used for short workings from the outer terminus, not from city. For example, at the Maypole there was at least one 50B working to Rea Street/Digbeth.
D was used: 54D Garrison Lane/Cattell Road
Quote from: Tony on April 10, 2024, 06:50:08 PMThe blinds only went up to L so that certainly was the route that went the furthest
Off at a slight tangent then.................
Where/when did the letters A, C, E (we know about), N, S, W become standard blind features/stand for, as I don't ever remember X being on there until well into the 90's?
Quote from: Wumpty on April 10, 2024, 09:52:53 PMOff at a slight tangent then.................
Where/when did the letters A, C, E (we know about), N, S, W become standard blind features/stand for, as I don't ever remember X being on there until well into the 90's?
This was in 1975 - at the same that A, C and E were changed to become what they generally still are today.
N was for Night Services, S for School Contracts and W for Works Contracts (contracts were not available to the general public).
One of the services WMPTE took over from Midland Red was the peak hours only X2, Hasbury - Birmingham Limited Stop. This was run by Stourbridge garage from the takeover. I think I recall seeing a PTE Leyland National, with 4 track number blinds, on the service in the mid 70s showing X2 - or is my memory playing tricks? I don't think X was on the blinds when the change to A, C, E, N, S, W was made.
Quote from: Steve3229vp on April 10, 2024, 09:50:40 PMD was used: 54D Garrison Lane/Cattell Road
56D was also used. Can't quite remember where to though. Saltley Gate? Washwood Heath Garage?
A, B, C and D were used on most services (according to my 1967 Ian Allan British Bus Fleets no 14)! But not used on 36 and 40, for example. 56D was indeed, Washwood Heath Garage and 55D was Alum Rock Road (Sladefield Road). Other Ls were 48 (48L - Maypole via Balsall Heath) and 90 (90L - Lambeth Road (Queslett Road).
There were lots of Js - not many Ks. There were also odd ones missing in each route - presumably where road arrangements of route arrangements had changed and the short working deleted. The multitude of short workings on the 11 and 8, had no suffix, or route number shown.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on April 10, 2024, 09:40:57 PMThere were a few others: 36L to Millhouse Road/Bierton Road, 48L to Maypole, 67L to Chester Road/Tangmere Drive, 90L to Lambeth Road/Queslett Road.
The letters D, G and I were not used, no doubt because they could have been mistaken for numbers.
It's worth pointing out that letters A, B and C (sometimes also others) were normally used for short workings from the outer terminus, not from city. For example, at the Maypole there was at least one 50B working to Rea Street/Digbeth.
D being on the blinds ended up quite useful after 1973, Birmingham buses lined to Sheepcote Street regularly had to show 16D when on the 160 to Kingshurst
Quote from: Tony on April 11, 2024, 01:52:49 PMD being on the blinds ended up quite useful after 1973, Birmingham buses lined to Sheepcote Street regularly had to show 16D when on the 160 to Kingshurst
I didn't actually realise track 3 was letters only!
Quote from: Gareth on April 11, 2024, 11:47:04 PMI didn't actually realise track 3 was letters only!
I'm pretty sure some of these may have been changed to numbers in the later 70s - I think I've seen a photo of a 2xx GON Fleetline on a 161 showing the correct number - presumably a Coventry Road vehicle? I think the 3781 onwards Fleetlines in Birmingham had four track blinds?
Quote from: don on April 11, 2024, 11:53:01 PMI'm pretty sure some of these may have been changed to numbers in the later 70s - I think I've seen a photo of a 2xx GON Fleetline on a 161 showing the correct number - presumably a Coventry Road vehicle? I think the 3781 onwards Fleetlines in Birmingham had four track blinds?
I think in the 1970's all ex Birmingham fleetlines had all number blinds having A C E N S and W on them
Quote from: don on April 11, 2024, 11:53:01 PMI'm pretty sure some of these may have been changed to numbers in the later 70s - I think I've seen a photo of a 2xx GON Fleetline on a 161 showing the correct number - presumably a Coventry Road vehicle? I think the 3781 onwards Fleetlines in Birmingham had four track blinds?
They started changing them around 1974 because of the ex Midland Red routes. Birmingham didn't have any 3 digits service numbers until then. Birmingham also had strict rules on displaying service numbers and single numbers always had to be displayed on the middle real. Until they were charged slightly dropped 'L' was normally used for 161 etc
Quote from: Tony on April 12, 2024, 09:19:58 AMThey started changing them around 1974 because of the ex Midland Red routes. Birmingham didn't have any 3 digits service numbers until then. Birmingham also had strict rules on displaying service numbers and single numbers always had to be displayed on the middle real. Until they were charged slightly dropped 'L' was normally used for 161 etc
They still did that trick with various interworking routes, even renumbering to 'make things easier', for example 350 / 351, with the 0 & 1 positioned half & half.
6992 - 80E to Summerfield Park.
Quote from: Westy on April 12, 2024, 11:45:51 AMThey still did that trick with various interworking routes, even renumbering to 'make things easier', for example 350 / 351, with the 0 & 1 positioned half & half.
That's just laziness, completely the opposite of Sheepcote Street an Sutton garages inventiveness
Quote from: Tony on April 12, 2024, 04:23:45 PMThat's just laziness, completely the opposite of Sheepcote Street an Sutton garages inventiveness
Some WA drivers would put the E on the first reel as they'd used the second, third and fourth for the 3 digit service number (frequently on the E367!).
The WA Track drivers never used the rear blinds due to the frequency of interworking changes. Imagine walking down the then Station Street looking for your bus and seeing NO numbers!
There was also the omission of the side blinds on Mk2A Metrobuses and Lynxes - both fitted with either 'via' blinds or bespoke side blinds and not being used.
Quote from: Wumpty on April 12, 2024, 06:43:47 PMThe WA Track drivers never used the rear blinds due to the frequency of interworking changes. Imagine walking down the then Station Street looking for your bus and seeing NO numbers!
In fact during most of the 1970s it was rare to see WA buses with the side number blinds in use either. I expect this was mainly, or totally, because Walsall Corporation buses built from the early 1960s only had front blinds.
Birmingham Corporation's two-door Fleetlines - and rear-engined single deckers - were built without rear number blinds (as were West Bromwich Fleetlines), and this policy carried on into the early PTE era. It became common for driver-only buses with to display blanks on the rear on those buses that had them, until (I understand) an agreement with drivers around 1979 brought them back into use.
I believe the agreement did not require rear number blinds to be used where route interworked, such as the WA track services.
Imagine being so upset and/or lazy to change front, side AND rear number blinds. Absolute shock horror.
Quote from: Gareth on April 12, 2024, 09:58:39 PMImagine being so upset and/or lazy to change front, side AND rear number blinds. Absolute shock horror.
Quote from: Gareth on April 12, 2024, 09:58:39 PMImagine being so upset and/or lazy to change front, side AND rear number blinds. Absolute shock horror.
No, it wasn't laziness.
Walsall services changed route numbers while passengers remained on the buses and the agreement was so the driver didn't have to leave the cab or lean over passengers on the seats underneath the route numbers
Quote from: Tony on April 13, 2024, 10:31:32 AMNo, it wasn't laziness.
Walsall services changed route numbers while passengers remained on the buses and the agreement was so the driver didn't have to leave the cab or lean over passengers on the seats underneath the route numbers
This also tended to be the case with roller blinds in more recent years on Birmingham routes that inter-worked; for example the 22/23. Whilst the side number tracks would be changed (the driver only needed to lean over the luggage rack) the rear ones would be left blank.
Why didn't TPTB do what was done with the Ailsa Volvo's & change the number blinds to electronic across the fleet?
Quote from: Westy on April 13, 2024, 01:46:43 PMWhy didn't TPTB do what was done with the Ailsa Volvo's & change the number blinds to electronic across the fleet
The Ailsa's had the Vultron blinds fitted as they had front mounted engines, meaning drivers had to leave the cab by an exterior offside cab door and walk around the outside of the bus. Vultron system was still relatively new technology and expensive, so retro fitting the entire fleet was impractical.
Quote from: Wumpty on April 14, 2024, 04:11:21 PMThe Ailsa's had the Vultron blinds fitted as they had front mounted engines, meaning drivers had to leave the cab by an exterior offside cab door and walk around the outside of the bus. Vultron system was still relatively new technology and expensive, so retro fitting the entire fleet was impractical.
Those early electronic number blinds were actually very poor in terms of readability compared to the roller blinds. This photo (not mine) illustrates that:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Nsz4ULjIHf8/VkB4xKb_iFI/AAAAAAAAOCE/NnpR0A1236M/s1600/JOV-740P.Wmpte.jpg
Quote from: Wumpty on April 14, 2024, 04:11:21 PMThe Ailsa's had the Vultron blinds fitted as they had front mounted engines, meaning drivers had to leave the cab by an exterior offside cab door and walk around the outside of the bus. Vultron system was still relatively new technology and expensive, so retro fitting the entire fleet was impractical.
I seem to remember that one fleetline also had them fitted, 6890 if I remember.
Quote from: fleetline6477 on April 14, 2024, 05:29:54 PMI seem to remember that one fleetline also had them fitted, 6890 if I remember.
You're right it did and metrobus 2102 I think
Quote from: Steve3229vp on April 14, 2024, 06:42:28 PMYou're right it did and metrobus 2102 I think
WA2791 was also originally fitted with Vultron, then this was swapped out for a more readable unit.