First Bus - Wyvern

[winston]

Good opportunity for Rotala/NX to muscle in on the 144 here.

I'm not sure either would entertain it though. Don't First also still manage Worcester Bus Station.

More details here about Jan cuts:
http://midlandred.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5374

That said, I have seen an increasing number of people on forums / social media of late wishing NXWM would buy Worcester to finally get rid of First. Worcester under NX could also be potentially used as a hub to create commuter routes (similar to Kings Ferry/Clarkes services) to/from Worcester and potentially in to Birmingham if journey times aren't too far away from those of the train or there's significant scope to compete on price instead. Or even NX coach shuttle services linking Birmingham Airport with Worcester City Centre & other Worcestershire towns.

[richardjones210368]

As I've said in the most profitable route thread, full bus doesn't mean profitably if the passengers arevtravelling long distances at discounted fares

I see very few twirlees usually full fare passengers on the 144 Tony trust me its FirstGroup politics not a loss making service

[richardjones210368]

What is happening to the frequency of 144A as it currently provides a 15 minute frequency between Worcester and Catshill?

From what I have been told 2 to 3 per hour to Catshill with 1 onwards to Brum

[Tony]

I see very few twirlees usually full fare passengers on the 144 Tony trust me its FirstGroup politics not a loss making service

Do you do First Worcester's accounts in your full time job then?

[richardjones210368]

Do you do First Worcester's accounts in your full time job then?

Yes I did but it wasnt a full time job it was during my five year accountancy degree my training contract was with Badgerline Holdings and my time was spent between Oldmixinton Crescent & Heron Lodge under Ken Mills a very happy place to train at before Trevor Smallwood went on a blind date with a Scots man called Moir! Very little accounting is now done at subsidiary level now its all done from King Street with bits in Essex and Leicester but not much.

[Tony]

Yes I did but it wasnt a full time job it was during my five year accountancy degree my training contract was with Badgerline Holdings and my time was spent between Oldmixinton Crescent & Heron Lodge under Ken Mills a very happy place to train at before Trevor Smallwood went on a blind date with a Scots man called Moir! Very little accounting is now done at subsidiary level now its all done from King Street with bits in Essex and Leicester but not much.

Precisely. You've no real idea whether it is now profitable. I haven't either, the only people who know that are First's current accountants.

[richardjones210368]

Precisely. You've no real idea whether it is now profitable. I haven't either, the only people who know that are First's current accountants.

You can obtain First Midland Red Buses Llmited accounts which I do from Companies House by using the net profit ratios used in the industry its very simple to work a profitability of a route all routes work to an NRV a net residual value these havent changed in donkeys years when using this ratio to the type of vechicle used you can work out a routes profitable also by traveling on the actual journey take the mean mode and medium of a particular journey correlate this with the fixed overhead costs of the operator and you can soon work out if the journey is profitabile you dont need to be a an accountant with First to work it out. If I spend a day on any bus with any operator I can work out what journeys are profitable and not its what I used to do at MRW & what i did untill recently I did for H M Gov its how we collect the statistical data on UK bus use service use & profitability nobody trusts an operator to provide accurate data do they? Its one of the reasons TfWM has its Bus Champions collecting data on your bus services when I used to be collecting the data for my work at the same I collected it for TfWM. I can assure the last time we collected the data on the 144 its quite profitable the late January cuts are simply First Corporate policy on PVR poor old First Midland Red Buses Ltd hasnt really got anything left to cut but the 144 to reduce its PVR and lets face it you make a lot money on the X8 in the peaks our stats prove it the margin is above the industry average yet you offer such a poor service in return but no.other operator can compete profitabilty because of synergys of scale thats why the Ludlows of Halesowen 9 failed but thats life!

[Tony]

You can obtain First Midland Red Buses Llmited accounts which I do from Companies House by using the net profit ratios used in the industry its very simple to work a profitability of a route all routes work to an NRV a net residual value these havent changed in donkeys years when using this ratio to the type of vechicle used you can work out a routes profitable also by traveling on the actual journey take the mean mode and medium of a particular journey correlate this with the fixed overhead costs of the operator and you can soon work out if the journey is profitabile you dont need to be a an accountant with First to work it out. If I spend a day on any bus with any operator I can work out what journeys are profitable and not its what I used to do at MRW & what i did untill recently I did for H M Gov its how we collect the statistical data on UK bus use service use & profitability nobody trusts an operator to provide accurate data do they? Its one of the reasons TfWM has its Bus Champions collecting data on your bus services when I used to be collecting the data for my work at the same I collected it for TfWM. I can assure the last time we collected the data on the 144 its quite profitable the late January cuts are simply First Corporate policy on PVR poor old First Midland Red Buses Ltd hasnt really got anything left to cut but the 144 to reduce its PVR and lets face it you make a lot money on the X8 in the peaks our stats prove it the margin is above the industry average yet you offer such a poor service in return but no.other operator can compete profitabilty because of synergys of scale thats why the Ludlows of Halesowen 9 failed but thats life!

I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. NXWM has routes making extremely good profits and others just breaking even and looking at the accounts published gives you no clues whatsoever. All it does is tell you the profitability as a whole. There's also different levels of allocating fixed overheads to routes. None of this detail is made public to anyone. Travelling on, and surveying will give you a clue if a trip is taking £40 an hour which is likely to be the minimum needed for that journey, but not for the entire service. The data collectors for TfWM are paid staff, Dom on here used to be one, therefore employees, and I'm sure some of the stuff you have posted would break their employee social media guidelines.

I don't generally see the figures so have no idea which NXWM routes make the money and which don't,  so I am certain First wouldn't disclose that to a non employee.  TfWM only need the figures tendered routes, so although they survey passenger use on all routes, aren't working out how much profit each is making

[richardjones210368]

I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. NXWM has routes making extremely good profits and others just breaking even and looking at the accounts published gives you no clues whatsoever. All it does is tell you the profitability as a whole. There's also different levels of allocating fixed overheads to routes. None of this detail is made public to anyone. Travelling on, and surveying will give you a clue if a trip is taking £40 an hour which is likely to be the minimum needed for that journey, but not for the entire service. The data collectors for TfWM are paid staff, Dom on here used to be one, therefore employees, and I'm sure some of the stuff you have posted would break their employee social media guidelines.

I don't generally see the figures so have no idea which NXWM routes make the money and which don't,  so I am certain First wouldn't disclose that to a non employee.  TfWM only need the figures tendered routes, so although they survey passenger use on all routes, aren't working out how much profit each is making

So your saying the job I have done for years is rubbish interesting   perhaps your right as I quit last month so cant pass your comments on to ONS sadly not sure what I was being paid for them if you read my post correctly you would see we used company accounts for the base calculations of an operator all limited company accounts are in the public domain then we collected our data onboard over a 7 day period and used it to create profitability reports your entitled to your opinion but I was really happy to be paid over £60000 for what you say was rubbish mind you your taxes were paying my salary! They employ weirdos like me because we dint need any company data bar the base accounts we know how much it costs to run a Trident or Gemini, we now what your pay rates are that has to be provided to the GOV and we were given back a non identifiable statistical average for the company, We then work out the route viability I think your overplaying only the operators know this they don't its our job to work it out for H M GOV. I bet no one on this site has ever given a thought to where and how H M Gov gets its statistics from about bus services before I became a Bus Champion no one at TfWM had heard of what we do and I doubt whether most at NXWM have any idea. The onboard TfWM data collectors collect data for tenders etc the Bus Champions collect different data on the quality of the services for TfWM for preparation for the WMCA board. FIRST or any other bus company have no need to disclose any information to us WE work out the average cost per journey that was our job and provided the data ourselves I loved being paid to spend 5 to 6 hrs on the bus collecting our data over a 7 day period and then working out the route profitability you can view all the results in the govs blue books of statistics but as you say its rubbish! also if you read my earlier posts the reason I never posted before was because we were not allowed to use any form social media or discuss what we did with others. I am now not employed by anyone so why would I care who reads my posts now or is that rubbish too as the great Ted Bovis would say "Give Me Strength"

[Tony]

There's a few things I am struggling to understand.

What £60,000 accountancy job gives someone enough spare time to have a second job collecting data for TfWM.

Bus champions are not employees of either TfWM or any of the companies. They are independent passengers that give their view on the services being provided or planned. (professional complainers)

[richardjones210368]

There's a few things I am struggling to understand.

What £60,000 accountancy job gives someone enough spare time to have a second job collecting data for TfWM.

Bus champions are not employees of either TfWM or any of the companies. They are independent passengers that give their view on the services being provided or planned. (professional complainers)

Your mixing this up I am partner in our family accountancy firm in Edgbaston that is my main job as a partner I am not employed. I was also contracted part time by the Gov to provide them separately with statistics for the Government blue books & DfT reports etc that usually had a net return of around £60.000 a year I ended up doing this by accident after I was on a routine secondment from our accounting Institute to Whitehall,  the Bus Champion work is unpaid and done for fun. The work for the Gov was nothing to do with our family accounting practice. I am not employed by anyone now I have quit my work for H M Government but there was a clause in their contract that we were not to discuss our work or use social media of any time my contract was up and we both mutually agreed it was time for me to go hence I am now on your excellent forum with a lot of time on my hands waiting and waiting and waiting for the X8 annoying everyone at our practice know I am there more often they were always happier when I was on the bus collating my statistics as I posted earlier for Health & Safety reasons we had to wear a uniform of a high vis jacket & safety boots when on the bus that is how I used to get mistaken for someone who knew about the buses on Five Ways!

[LazyGuy222]

Your mixing this up I am partner in our family accountancy firm in Edgbaston that is my main job as a partner I am not employed. I was also contracted part time by the Gov to provide them separately with statistics for the Government blue books & DfT reports etc that usually had a net return of around £60.000 a year I ended up doing this by accident after I was on a routine secondment from our accounting Institute to Whitehall,  the Bus Champion work is unpaid and done for fun. The work for  the Gov was nothing to do with our family accounting practice. I am not employed by anyone now I have quit my work for H M Government but there was a clause in their contract that we were not to discuss our work or use social media of any time my contract was up and we both mutually agreed it was time for me to go hence I am now on your excellent forum with a lot of time on my hands waiting and waiting and waiting for the X8 annoying everyone at our practice know I am there more often they were always happier when I was on the bus collating my statistics as I posted earlier for Health & Safety reasons we had to wear a uniform of a high vis jacket & safety boots when on the bus that is how I used to get mistaken for someone who knew about the buses on Five Ways!

Could you repeat that with proper grammar so we can understand what you're saying.

[MW]

Isn't it about time this prat was removed from the forum? Every once in a while we get these nutters. On one hand a super professional accountant slash "Bus Champion" earning this that and the other with infinite knowledge, and on the other hand he can't put a fucking sentence together.

Excuse my french.

[richardjones210368]

Isn't it about time this prat was removed from the forum? Every once in a while we get these nutters. On one hand a super professional accountant slash "Bus Champion" earning this that and the other with infinite knowledge, and on the other hand he can't put a fucking sentence together.

Excuse my french.

Sadly I cannot spell  to save myself you dont need it as an accountant so who cares I.dont and my posts were in response to being told I could not know the profitability of a service and my  reply of how I do if you read the posts apologies if that wasnt clear.

[j789]

As an employee at Worcester garage for well over a decade I would concur that even employees really have no idea of profitability of each route. Whilst regularly driving routes gives a good indication of popularity, it doesn't necessarily mean that the route makes much profit. Particularly if other overheads like higher wages, staff sickness levels, breakdowns etc are taken into account. I am VERY surprised at the 144 timetable change as personal think it would support a 20 minute service to Birmingham so don't think this decision is based on the route losing money, in the canteen the consensus was the new branding increased patronage overall. However, the Worcester to Bromsgrove part of the route is remaining at every 15 minutes so perhaps it has been this section that has seen an increase rather than the Brum part.

Personally from driving the 144 over the years, certain journies are very busy to Birmingham but others are not so it is hard to tell. It is a very useful route for many people and deserves a frequent service, it just can't compete with the 63 frequency in the West Midlands. That is one reason why I genuinely hope NXWM ultimately purchase Worcester garage as I believe the 144 would regain its high status and be run in tandem with the 63 to provide a better service but actually using no extra vehicles as they could be timetabled together.