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The outer circle is a flagship route but for many years it had older buses on it and it would be interesting to know by how much passenger numbers changed when the Geminis were put on it, I doubt very much. I caught it to school every day for 7 years with Metros on it (Metro 2039 was a regular up until 2002 - over 23 years old). The Presidents are still young in comparison. Most passengers just want a bus to turn up and as long as it is reasonable to travel on will not mind what bus turns up whether it is new or not. How many passengers do you think actually look at the bus registration anyway??? Many have enough trouble looking at the destination/ number so I dont think it matters to most people. The West Mids is not perfect but there are many places worse off, including those with large scale competition eg Sheffield. A lack of new D/D in the area is not a new problem either, after the 1990 Scanias there were no more D/D until the Optares in 1997. And if Stagecoach/ Go ahead etc owned TWM there still wouldn't be 1500 brand new buses in the fleet. Nat Ex operation has more positives than negatives.

Is there now quite a few more journies to/from Leamington on the new 11 route in the peaks? Looking at the new timetable it is now upto every 15 mins from there, I thought it was half hourly, or has it always been this way?

Thanks for reply that explains the VRs. I always like the standard VR body and it would have been good to have seen some in the West Mids - I think Midland Red ran a few second hand ones in Redditch in the early nineties but apart from that I cant think of any others operated in this region.

I always thought it odd when reading it why the Bristol VRTs got withdrawn despite only being 11 or 12 years old, especially when older Nationals transferred to WMT.

Well the book I have covers all the formative years of WMPTE and its origin companies + Midland red routes in 1974 and has lots of info/pictures of the vehicles and garages in existence upto 1986. One of the best things in it is the tables at the back which show when each vehicle was withdrawn. This would be great for the modern era too if possible. I would think 26 years of history would provide more than enough content for such a book, and would make a very interesting read too.

Are there any books on West Midlands Travel/TWM post 1986? I have a really good book about the West Mids up to 1986 but I have not seen anything that is after then. Would be good to have a concise history of the last 26 years!!!

Probably be the 144 route then. I think First would respond though if it is.

Surely Arriva would also be at risk of nxwm retaliation in Lichfield, Stafford and even Telford as all are not that far away from current nxwm operating territory.

I would think a layover point at Kings Heath would be feasible where the current 27/76/11a/c stop is before the High street. A five minute stop could be built in to allow for a driver changeover or make up time and this would not adversely effect any passengers.

It is a shame nxwm and other operators don't join together sometimes to jointly run routes. I would think a cannock route could be done with Arriva, and in other areas too.  I think nxwm and First could work together on a Bromsgrove corridor too and possibly with Stagecoach in Coventry to Leamington.

Seeing as the two teminus points on the 27 route are close together, this route could quite easily be made into a circular 27a/c by extending the current route from the Maypole through druids heath to hawkesley. This would probably only require an extra vehicle or 2 to current requirements and would open up new links for passengers in this area.

Have to say NXWM are fine in my experience, no probs along Bristol road etc. As for saying Diamond are bullied by others, having seen them in Worcester and on the 144 I would suggest that it was them who liked to block you in and always trying to get on the stop first. I'm sure in any company there are people who are over competitive but some companies are worse than others. Even though the worse ones I saw were the company that used to run the 63 with old darts, I got undertaken (!!) more than once just so they could get in front. Absoloutely shocking driving and never a police car about when needed.

Shame they dont do an express Harborne route anymore but guess it is well served by a number of routes already. I used to love catching the no. 10 as it was a quick way into town as well and the brand new lynxes on it made it fun too. It is a shame west mids dropped the 10 route as it used to be well used as many people from harborne/quinton would rather catch it than the 103 into town, but it gradually got continually changed (remember the short lived 102 route?!?) until it eventually went to central connect

When Harborne garage closed in 1986 was it kept as a store? I only ask as one of my earliest bus memories is of waiting at the Harborne swimming baths stop for a no. 3 and looking across the road into the car park of what was the duke of york pub and there were buses in there, was this area ever used as a small bus station or have I remembered it wrong?! It would be either 1988 or 89.

Also, does anyone else remember the 25 route that ran in the peaks between the city and Bartley Green - similar route to the 22/23? I remember fleetlines being often used on it.

I agree that small is sometimes better and a company like Claribels has shown that with quality focused on a few services. However, I don't think its a one size fits all either because Diamond's network is spread over a much wider area than Claribels or similar companies so they need a larger network of services, which is where tendered work is important. Also, the 16 must be good for them but equally over those 30 years Nat Ex West Midlands and its predessors have also run the 16 route to a high frequency so must likewise be doing alright off it too, so again I'd say where is the scope for expansion?