Just seen of the Diamond thread that NX have won three routes off Diamond:
CV1 and the 108. 28A being a possibility.
Thoughts on these? Maybe NX could potentially change the routes a bit? I.E combine the 28A with the Small Heath extension on the 28 or are two tendered routes not allowed to combine?
Incorporate the 28A into the 28 and maybe half hourly extensions during the day to Small Heath?
Quote from: Jack on February 10, 2020, 03:48:16 PM
Incorporate the 28A into the 28 and maybe half hourly extensions during the day to Small Heath?
I dont think NX have gained the 28A tender
Quote from: metrocity on February 10, 2020, 04:04:44 PM
I dont think NX have gained the 28A tender
They haven't that's why I said that I could be a possibility with NX already having the 28.
Quote from: Busboy105 on February 10, 2020, 03:47:06 PM
Just seen of the Diamond thread that NX have won three routes off Diamond:
CV1 and the 108. 28A being a possibility.
Thoughts on these? Maybe NX could potentially change the routes a bit? I.E combine the 28A with the Small Heath extension on the 28 or are two tendered routes not allowed to combine?
Absolutely no way, the 28 suffers with reliability enough now without extending it to Small Heath, I lived on the 28 for all of my life, so no no no no !
Quote from: Busboy105 on February 10, 2020, 03:47:06 PM
or are two tendered routes not allowed to combine?
Don't think the NX 28 is a tendered route either, thought its commercial. Other than the Small Heath extensions evenings and Sundays.
Quote from: metrocity on February 10, 2020, 04:04:44 PM
I dont think NX have gained the 28A tender
If NX haven't got it. Have Claribels gained the 28A
@Steveminor?
Quote from: Steve3229vp on February 10, 2020, 05:36:07 PM
Absolutely no way, the 28 suffers with reliability enough now without extending it to Small Heath, I lived on the 28 for all of my life, so no no no no !
It doesn't have to extend to Small Heath. The 28 could run to Heartlands Hospital at all times with the 28A running as normal but with the Small Heath journeys added onto it. The frequency could then be lowered to both services running hourly in the evenings still keeping the 30 minute evening and Sunday frequency.
Quote from: 2206 on February 10, 2020, 05:41:07 PM
Don't think the PB 28 is a tendered route either, thought its commercial. Other than the Small Heath extensions evenings and Sundays.If NX haven't got it. Probably Claribels then?
You're right it is. The Small Heath section is tendered because there's no other route that covers it. Similar to the old 127 Blackheath to Dudley extension.
Also, wouldn't be a bad shout for Claribels to take it. They already have the 36 that operates in the same area.
Bring the 99 back to cover it!
Quote from: ellspurs on February 10, 2020, 05:45:04 PM
Bring the 99 back to cover it!
What was the 99?
Thought it used to be the 24?
Quote from: 2206 on February 10, 2020, 05:45:57 PM
What was the 99?
Lanchester Way, Smith's Wood to Birmingham via Lea Hall, Yew Tree, Birmingham Heartlands Hospital and that bit of Small Heath. The middle portion of it is the current 889 school route.
Quote from: ellspurs on February 10, 2020, 05:51:22 PM
Lanchester Way, Smith's Wood to Birmingham via Lea Hall, Yew Tree, Birmingham Heartlands Hospital and that bit of Small Heath. The middle portion of it is the current 889 school route.
Would remove the link from the pelham and Fox and Goose through to Small Heath. The few times I've seen and used it a few travel beyond Heartlands.
Surely if the above route was needed or viable it would still be around in some sort of form today. The roads the current 889 serves are served by the 58 and 73 already surely.
Quote from: 2206 on February 10, 2020, 06:39:18 PM
Would remove the link from the pelham and Fox and Goose through to Small Heath. The few times I've seen and used it a few travel beyond Heartlands.
Surely if the above route was needed or viable it would still be around in some sort of form today. The roads the current 889 serves are served by the 58 and 73 already surely.
The link would be maintained if the 28 reverted back to its Small Heath terminus instead of using the old 28A terminus at the hospital. Most of what the 28A covers in that part of Small Heath was the old 99 route anyway.
I know it ain't going to happen. I just used to like getting on it at Auckland Drive and riding it all the way into the City.
Quote from: ellspurs on February 10, 2020, 07:11:14 PM
The link would be maintained if the 28 reverted back to its Small Heath terminus instead of using the old 28A terminus at the hospital. Most of what the 28A covers in that part of Small Heath was the old 99 route anyway.
I know it ain't going to happen. I just used to like getting on it at Auckland Drive and riding it all the way into the City.
My understanding is that the tender will be existing route but reduced to an hourly frequency
I'm sure a registration will be on Visa very soon
For what it's worth, I reckon Claribels have won it.
Disclaimer: This is a guess
Quote from: MW on February 10, 2020, 08:41:00 PM
For what it's worth, I reckon Claribels have won it.
Disclaimer: This is a guess
Who else would it be? There's only 3 major operators in Birmingham now.
Quote from: Busboy105 on February 10, 2020, 09:58:19 PM
Who else would it be? There's only 3 major operators in Birmingham now.
Could be a few.
Thandi/Evergreen, LandFlight, Claribels, NX and any of the Wolverhampton operators who have expanded TfWM work recently.
Quote from: MW on February 11, 2020, 12:20:26 AM
Could be a few.
Thandi/Evergreen, LandFlight, Claribels, NX and any of the Wolverhampton operators who have expanded TfWM work recently.
Surely the Wolverhampton operators wouldn't take the Ward End to Small Heath 28A, must be an very long distance from where they currently operate?
Same with Landflight, not seen them take on any tenders other than those in the Solihull area.
Quote from: 2206 on February 11, 2020, 12:34:11 AM
Surely the Wolverhampton operators wouldn't take the Ward End to Small Heath 28A, must be an very long distance from where they currently operate?
Same with Landflight, not seen them take on any tenders other than those in the Solihull area.
Landflight used to operate on the 36 a couple of years ago.
Back in 2007 the 28 ran very successfully and reliable to small heath every 30 minutes 3hr round trip
Recovery 10 Minutes Scott Arms 25 Minutes Small Heath
28A Heartlands Hospital - Perry Batt one Stop
2hr 30 minutes round trip every 30 Minutes
Recovery 5 Minutes Perry Barr one stop 10 Minutes Heartlands Hospital 🏥
Quote from: PB2938 on February 11, 2020, 09:28:13 AM
Back in 2007 the 28 ran very successfully and reliable to small heath every 30 minutes 3hr round trip
That was 13 years ago, I doubt it could do the same now, due to increased levels of traffic and congestion.
Quote from: PB2938 on February 11, 2020, 09:28:13 AM
Back in 2007 the 28 ran very successfully and reliable to small heath every 30 minutes 3hr round trip
Recovery 10 Minutes Scott Arms 25 Minutes Small Heath
28A Heartlands Hospital - Perry Batt one Stop
2hr 30 minutes round trip every 30 Minutes
Recovery 5 Minutes Perry Barr one stop 10 Minutes Heartlands Hospital 🏥
I hadn't realised it was 2007 when the 28 ran the full route during the daytimes. Was the 28 split before that too?
Would it require more buses now to do the full route as the frequency is increased due to using singles these days. Or was it before 2007 when the B10Bs came onto the route
Not to mention it wouldn't work with the 28's current frequency. 30 (mins) doesn't go into 12 (mins)
Quote from: Lukeee on February 11, 2020, 08:55:16 PM
Would it require more buses now to do the full route as the frequency is increased due to using singles these days. Or was it before 2007 when the B10Bs came onto the route
Before February 2007 Metrobuses operated via South road, Erdington joint 15 minute frequncey 28/28A total daytime of 11 Buses. When the B10Bs arrived the frequency was increased to every 10 minutes.
28 Great Barr-Bordesley Green
28A Perry Barr - Heartlands Hospital and
24 Small Heath - Ward End via Heartlands Hospital every 30 minutes operated by Lea Hall Garage.
If today I'm not sure how they'd fit a timetable if it ran to small heath hourly how would that work with Heartlands - Great Barr workings at current 02h30 Daytime round trip.
Unless they run it seperate, an hourly frequency would just require one bus and would save them working out how to interwork it
Quote from: ellspurs on February 10, 2020, 05:51:22 PM
Lanchester Way, Smith's Wood to Birmingham via Lea Hall, Yew Tree, Birmingham Heartlands Hospital and that bit of Small Heath. The middle portion of it is the current 889 school route.
Didn't Travel Yourbus operate this route?
99y
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/47518/stat-inf-april-2020.pdf
Quote from: Matt.N0056 on February 14, 2020, 07:04:54 PM
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/47518/stat-inf-april-2020.pdf
Interesting to see the 108 is now the X6 wonder if the the 907 will change the X7 at that point
How are NX winning so many tenders when they clearly have higher operational costs?
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 14, 2020, 07:19:18 PM
How are NX winning so many tenders when they clearly have higher operational costs?
Why do you say clearly have higher operational costs?
Insurance costs can be lower,
Diesel costs can be lower (hedging)
New vehicle costs can be lower (bulk purchase)
Even things like NX's contactless system being the first major transport company the banks accepted as secure enough to guarantee payments on dodgy cards can help.
£260 / day to run the 28A.
£130 / day per bus. Very cheap...
Quote from: Trident 4194 on February 14, 2020, 07:19:18 PM
How are NX winning so many tenders when they clearly have higher operational costs?
Lack of other bidders?
Quote from: Stu on February 14, 2020, 08:56:35 PM
Lack of other bidders?
There were 4 bidders for both. I wonder who other than Diamond wanted to run the 108
Quote from: Tony on February 14, 2020, 08:59:27 PM
I wonder who other than Diamond wanted to run the 108
Claribels possibly, using buses from some of other tendered routes (167/168/600) that run during the day?
And maybe Thandi as well.
Quote from: MW on February 14, 2020, 08:48:34 PM
£260 / day to run the 28A.
£130 / day per bus. Very cheap...
@MW Unless frequency has been reduced/reduced operating times?
Quote from: MW on February 14, 2020, 08:48:34 PM
£260 / day to run the 28A.
£130 / day per bus. Very cheap...
£130 / day per bus equals to £10 / hour based on a 13 hour operation per day
Compared to the 1 in Coventry, which has been awarded to NX on the basis of £530 per day, which is £265 per day per vehicle, which is roughly £20 / hour.
Twice the cost of the 28A.
£10 an hour for the 28A seems ridiculously cheap to me. Are the passenger numbers that great on the 28A?
@Matt.N0056 maybe it has been reduced, yeah. Does anyone have access to the previous figures for the 28A showing how much subsidy Diamond were awarded?
Quote from: MW on February 14, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
@Matt.N0056 maybe it has been reduced, yeah. Does anyone have access to the previous figures for the 28A showing how much subsidy Diamond were awarded?
£91, 208 per annum
@MW.
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/2437/statutory-information-23-april-2017.pdf
Quote from: MW on February 14, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
£130 / day per bus equals to £10 / hour based on a 13 hour operation per day
Compared to the 1 in Coventry, which has been awarded to NX on the basis of £530 per day, which is £265 per day per vehicle, which is roughly £20 / hour.
Twice the cost of the 28A.
£10 an hour for the 28A seems ridiculously cheap to me. Are the passenger numbers that great on the 28A?
@Matt.N0056 maybe it has been reduced, yeah. Does anyone have access to the previous figures for the 28A showing how much subsidy Diamond were awarded?
@MW Used to have a handful or regulars around Small Heath, and would pick up between Heartlands & Ward End if there wasn't an NX28. Saturdays were pretty quiet
EDIT: miss read your post :o
Quote from: 2206 on February 14, 2020, 09:13:40 PM
£91, 208 per annum @MW.
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/media/2437/statutory-information-23-april-2017.pdf
Diamond operates it on the basis of 91,208 per annum.
That's £291 per day, divided by 2 buses which is £145 per day.
£145 per day divided by 13 hours = £11.20 an hour.
How do these companies make money of tenders so small?
Perhaps
@metrocity or
@Steveminor can help answer this?
Quote from: 2206 on February 14, 2020, 09:06:38 PM
Claribels possibly, using buses some of other tendered routes that run during the day?
And maybe Thandi as well.
Would need to be someone with 2 Euro 6 buses with other work for them during the day
28A is now only a 1 bus pvr so that reduces operating costs. Interesting that nx won the 108 on an alternate bid so maybe adjusting the timetable & route to lower its pvr
Quote from: Steveminor on February 14, 2020, 09:42:09 PM
28A is now only a 1 bus pvr so that reduces operating costs. Interesting that nx won the 108 on an alternate bid so maybe adjusting the timetable & route to lower its pvr
Thanks for clearing that up. So Diamond are running the current 28A cheaper than cheap. The new 28A works out at £20 an hour, which is in line with NX.
10 nbus/concessionary passes an hour and the service is running at a profit.
Quote from: MW on February 14, 2020, 09:18:39 PM
Diamond operates it on the basis of 91,208 per annum.
That's £291 per day, divided by 2 buses which is £145 per day.
£145 per day divided by 13 hours = £11.20 an hour.
How do these companies make money of tenders so small?
Perhaps @metrocity or @Steveminor can help answer this?
You have to add fares/pass revenue on top
Quote from: Tony on February 14, 2020, 10:10:47 PM
You have to add fares/pass revenue on top
Yeah I realise that,
The average figure that most smaller companies run off is approx £30/hour to run a bus (inc wages, fuel, insurance etc)
£11.20 per hour in subsidy would suggest fares of about £20/hour.
Average value of per passenger is £1, as most are concessionary passes. That'd imply 10 passengers per journey, which for the 28A seems hard to imagine at times other than peaks. I felt like I was missing something as the pricing seems too low, but Steve has confirmed that the PVR is now reduced to 1, which is what I was missing.
Cash fares are few and far for operators other than NX in Birmingham, as most tend to buy nbus and therefore reduced income for the small operator. The strength of the NX daysaver/travelcard right there.
Quote from: SL 16 YPN on February 14, 2020, 07:14:01 PM
Interesting to see the 108 is now the X6 wonder if the the 907 will change the X7 at that point
I doubt the 907 would become X7 because then would the 934-7 and 997 be renumbered as well
Quote from: Wumpty on February 14, 2020, 05:11:24 AM
Didn't Travel Yourbus operate this route?
Quote from: Steveminor on February 14, 2020, 05:32:32 AM
99y
I honestly don't ever remember seeing a 99Y in Smith's Wood. This is of course unless they operated it in the 80s when I was too young to remember it.
The closest I remember a YourBus getting to here was the 91Y or 92Y that ran from Shard End to City Hospital via Birmingham.
Your bus operated the 99Y evenings and Sundays around 1998 /1999. The TWM version lasted until May 2005 withdrawn along 92 and 994.
Kingshurst was served by extended 26'
Quote from: Tony on February 14, 2020, 10:10:47 PM
You have to add fares/pass revenue on top
We are asked to extend all these tenders - we declined the opportunity. It is fair to say the services are losing making. The 28A we won on tender, the 1 we took over when we acquired Central. The passenger numbers on the other tenders never materialised.
The largest part of any operator cost base is labour, which is over 50% of our running costs in a bus business.
Therefore location of depot, efficient interworking become key, and how efficiently you can give drivers breaks. We did not expect to retain any of these tenders.
Simon
Quote from: PB2938 on February 15, 2020, 10:37:56 AM
Your bus operated the 99Y evenings and Sundays around 1998 /1999. The TWM version lasted until May 2005 withdrawn along 92 and 994.
Kingshurst was served by extended 26'
Ah, I don't remember who were operating the yearly tenders on the 71 and 99. Just the signs on the TWM buses when they won/lost the tender.
Be good to see Perry Barr operating the new service
Quote from: Nxwm on February 15, 2020, 01:15:08 PM
Be good to see Perry Barr operating the new service
What buses will it use? Platinum perhaps?
Quote from: Busboy105 on February 15, 2020, 05:52:51 PM
What buses will it use? Platinum perhaps?
Can see it being put onto a Sutton board so probably.
How long are the April tenders for