[Split off from Birmingham Central thread]Quote from: Mike K on October 17, 2023, 06:31:12 PMI've been thinking for a while now that the 23/24 really needs extra capacity during rush hour and my thoughts were echoed this evening by the driver of 7521, who asked multiple standees if they could move away from the buggy zone so he could accommodate another mother and pushchair. "Too many people, not enough buses, it's the same every day" were his words.
Peak hour usage on those services must be at or close to pre-pandemic levels on Mon-Thurs at least.
They really struggle on a 5 minute frequency, with most journeys having large standing loads, often even when there are 2 buses together. Pretty much every inbound morning peak bus leaves Harborne High St full, and just a small gap in service results in carnage.
I know they've had a minor frequency increase last month, but would hope that as the driver shortage eases further, they could possibly consider restoring the previous 4 minute rush hour frequency. As it is, the commute to and from work is not a pleasurable one.
I don't doubt that there may be other services in a similar position.
This reminds me of something I thought about a couple of weeks ago.
I know the current economic climate might not be quite right for bus operators to be taking commercial risks, but with the withdrawal of single-operator tickets/passes in lieu of the multi-operator nBus offerings, there has to be some opportunities somewhere for other bus operators to add journeys onto busier services.
I think the way to look at this is "complement, not compete" - NX clearly don't have the resources to put on extra journeys to increase capacity at busy times, so perhaps in collaboration with TfWM, other operators could be invited to register commercial services as a way of 'helping out'.
It's an idea that would need a bit more fleshing out, but it starts with the notion that passengers can use their ticket/pass on any operator's service now, so there is no longer that 'barrier' that hindered smaller operators from competing before on NX's commercial services.
This topic probably isn't the right place for a detailed discussion of this, but if there's interest then I'll split it off.
Quote from: Stu on October 17, 2023, 07:23:11 PMThis reminds me of something I thought about a couple of weeks ago.
I know the current economic climate might not be quite right for bus operators to be taking commercial risks, but with the withdrawal of single-operator tickets/passes in lieu of the multi-operator nBus offerings, there has to be some opportunities somewhere for other bus operators to add journeys onto busier services.
I think the way to look at this is "complement, not compete" - NX clearly don't have the resources to put on extra journeys to increase capacity at busy times, so perhaps in collaboration with TfWM, other operators could be invited to register commercial services as a way of 'helping out'.
It's an idea that would need a bit more fleshing out, but it starts with the notion that passengers can use their ticket/pass on any operator's service now, so there is no longer that 'barrier' that hindered smaller operators from competing before on NX's commercial services.
This topic probably isn't the right place for a detailed discussion of this, but if there's interest then I'll split it off.
We talk about no more daysaver and it has been replaced by nBus and the opportunity to complement rather than compete etc, but what about the significant number of passengers who use their contactless card to hop on and off various NXWM buses who are unaware of the nBus ticket, and therefore wouldn't jump on, for example, a Diamond bus operating on the X21/22, using a different ticket machine.
NX still have the monopoly because of the ticketing hardware.
Quote from: MW on October 17, 2023, 07:39:18 PMWe talk about no more daysaver and it has been replaced by nBus and the opportunity to complement rather than compete etc, but what about the significant number of passengers who use their contactless card to hop on and off various NXWM buses who are unaware of the nBus ticket, and therefore wouldn't jump on, for example, a Diamond bus operating on the X21/22, using a different ticket machine.
NX still have the monopoly because of the ticketing hardware.
Well like I said, it was an idea that needs fleshing out, but you're right, that would still be one barrier to overcome.
But still, if you can get a number of passengers with Swift cards or paper tickets using other operators' services, it would alleviate the overcrowding on NX buses for those who can only use their contactless cards.
Quote from: Stu on October 17, 2023, 07:23:11 PMThis reminds me of something I thought about a couple of weeks ago.
I know the current economic climate might not be quite right for bus operators to be taking commercial risks, but with the withdrawal of single-operator tickets/passes in lieu of the multi-operator nBus offerings, there has to be some opportunities somewhere for other bus operators to add journeys onto busier services.
I think the way to look at this is "complement, not compete" - NX clearly don't have the resources to put on extra journeys to increase capacity at busy times, so perhaps in collaboration with TfWM, other operators could be invited to register commercial services as a way of 'helping out'.
It's an idea that would need a bit more fleshing out, but it starts with the notion that passengers can use their ticket/pass on any operator's service now, so there is no longer that 'barrier' that hindered smaller operators from competing before on NX's commercial services.
This topic probably isn't the right place for a detailed discussion of this, but if there's interest then I'll split it off.
The problem with this is obvious though - NX (or any dominant operator in the same position) would pull resources off less profitable routes (to put on those more profitable routes) in order to prevent such a scenario happening. This would then penalise those other routes and lead to a degradation of the current network, not an improvement.
Likewise, the smaller companies like Diamond do not have unlimited spare drivers and vehicles to do this unless they pulled them off their less profitable routes too. It's a vicious cycle that would not end well.
Tony has stated on here that NX are getting closer to ending the driver shortage, and there are noticeably less cancelled journeys now than 6 months ago. The Harborne routes probably could do with going back to every 4 mins rather than 5 but I think of more relevance is ensuring the highways and council reduce delays caused by roadworks - this would have the most positive impact on passengers.
Quote from: MW on October 17, 2023, 07:39:18 PMWe talk about no more daysaver and it has been replaced by nBus and the opportunity to complement rather than compete etc, but what about the significant number of passengers who use their contactless card to hop on and off various NXWM buses who are unaware of the nBus ticket, and therefore wouldn't jump on, for example, a Diamond bus operating on the X21/22, using a different ticket machine.
NX still have the monopoly because of the ticketing hardware.
Yes and one of those companies has recently invested in 150+ new electric buses whilst the other has purchased ex-first streetsh*tes. There is more than one reason why this monopoly exists (and is a good thing for passengers!!!)
Quote from: Stu on October 17, 2023, 07:23:11 PMI think the way to look at this is "complement, not compete"
You make a great point here, there are very few routes that have competing operators on now, the 50 the only real one and with the 4/4H/4M becoming a co-ordinated timetable your term "complement, not compete" is now a reality.
Quote from: j789 on October 17, 2023, 08:55:37 PMYes and one of those companies has recently invested in 150+ new electric buses whilst the other has purchased ex-first streetsh*tes. There is more than one reason why this monopoly exists (and is a good thing for passengers!!!)
The fact that TfWM have opened up nBus and forced operators to withdraw their Own Tickets combined with the fact that passengers can't hop on and off any operators bus with their same contactless card and be capped at the nBus price is counter intuitive and doesn't actually benefit the passenger unless they've got a season ticket.
I wondered when you'd poke your anti Independant/Competitive opinion in.
Maybe if passengers were simply able to board on any other operators vehicle and still be capped at nBus Day prices, you'd see operators like Diamond spending vast amounts on new fleets.
The chance of any new operators appearing anywhere is extremely slim. Operating costs are above income on nearly every route of every operator with things like insurance killing off most people who would try. That was the final straw for Green Bus. Franchising isn't an instant answer either, Go North West are in a complete mess in Manchester with staff that were TUPEd over to them leaving and going back to Stagecoach and Diamond. Being replaced by Agency drivers on £1,200 per week, Go NW will also be paying the Agency a fee for supplying drivers on top and still many buses are missing. ex Arriva drivers are also commenting about how bad it is working for them.
Quote from: MW on October 17, 2023, 09:17:27 PMThe fact that TfWM have opened up nBus and forced operators to withdraw their Own Tickets combined with the fact that passengers can't hop on and off any operators bus with their same contactless card and be capped at the nBus price is counter intuitive and doesn't actually benefit the passenger unless they've got a season ticket.
I wondered when you'd poke your anti Independant/Competitive opinion in.
Maybe if passengers were simply able to board on any other operators vehicle and still be capped at nBus Day prices, you'd see operators like Diamond spending vast amounts on new fleets.
It's got nothing to do with 'anti-competition' or something about being an independent operator, I just want quality operations. From Diamond (and it's previous forms) all I have seen over the last 30 years has been Nationals followed by Darts followed by Streetlites (I know other vehicle types were operated too but you get the picture). Those vehicles just scream 'cheap operation' to me. I have been impressed by how Diamond have improved in recent years but it's not realistic to think they could ever be more than a bit part player here. Go Ahead couldn't even make it work for them with their significant financial backing.
The usual suspects of course spout the oft-repeated arguments about how much better everything would be if NX wasn't the dominant operator. Yet as usual the facts
don't lie - Diamond themselves happily put out press releases in recent time saying how they were losing money on all their West Mids commercial routes, including those not competing directly with NX. That is not a sign of positivity for the future.
The problem is not the monopoly of NX, it is lack of investment over many years in the road infrastructure that means that the car is still the chosen form of travel for many. NX certainly don't have all the answers either as can be seen by their sliding share price but no one else in the market here either is bringing anything new or exciting to the table. Streetlites might fulfil a working necessity but they won't attract new passengers onto buses and thus increase profits. So no this is certainly not anti-independent or competition, it's just reality.
Quote from: j789 on October 17, 2023, 08:55:37 PMYes and one of those companies has recently invested in 150+ new electric buses whilst the other has purchased ex-first streetsh*tes. There is more than one reason why this monopoly exists (and is a good thing for passengers!!!)
The ex-First streetsh*tes you refer to are allocated to Kidderminster depot, they only operate in to the West Midlands on routes 25, 142/142A, 192 & 202. The 68 plate & above Euro 6 Diamler Streetlites that Diamond bought brand new, are much better than the Streetlites First Worcester have experience of.
The NXC new electric bus fleet recevied some funding from the dfT, also as Coventry City Council had bid & won to become the first all electric bus city, NX had to renew their fleet with new electrics.
https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/first-130-buses-ordered-puts-coventry-on-road-to-becoming-uk-s-first-all-electric-bus-city/
Quote from: Stu on October 17, 2023, 07:23:11 PMThis reminds me of something I thought about a couple of weeks ago.
I know the current economic climate might not be quite right for bus operators to be taking commercial risks, but with the withdrawal of single-operator tickets/passes in lieu of the multi-operator nBus offerings, there has to be some opportunities somewhere for other bus operators to add journeys onto busier services.
I think the way to look at this is "complement, not compete" - NX clearly don't have the resources to put on extra journeys to increase capacity at busy times, so perhaps in collaboration with TfWM, other operators could be invited to register commercial services as a way of 'helping out'.
It's an idea that would need a bit more fleshing out, but it starts with the notion that passengers can use their ticket/pass on any operator's service now, so there is no longer that 'barrier' that hindered smaller operators from competing before on NX's commercial services.
This topic probably isn't the right place for a detailed discussion of this, but if there's interest then I'll split it off.
This is absolutely worth a split thread
@Stu - the 171/301 Walsall to Mossley route was born out of this same ethos of compliment not compete with Superline, despite what some of the politicians and Centro may have flowered it up as.
I have to say I noticed the 10 in to Birmingham from Quinton was much busier compared to a few months ago.
I never thought it could be the one operator ticketing
Quote from: sonic84 on October 19, 2023, 08:38:15 PMI have to say I noticed the 10 in to Birmingham from Quinton was much busier compared to a few months ago.
I never thought it could be the one operator ticketing
I must admit I don't know for certain, but I would like to think that it is helping.
For many years now, I've had a monthly NX DD Regional Faresaver pass, mainly because NX operate the services I mostly use.
And I was always a little reluctant to use other operators' services, simply because it would cost me more.
Since the ticketing changes, especially on the weekend, if I'm heading off to Kings Heath, Shirley or Solihull, I'm happy to go and get the Stagecoach 169, which is admittedly a much shorter walk than going to get the 11C, 27 or 76 that I would have done. And when I need to get the 50 to/from Kings Heath, I no longer have to let the Diamond bus go by and wait for the NX one.
I'm just one example out of hundreds and thousands of people.
But one thing I have been noticing is more people on NX Buses using contactless cards/devices who are asking for 'paper' day tickets, presumably so they can be used on other operators' services for onward journeys.
Quote from: Tony on October 17, 2023, 09:30:47 PMThe chance of any new operators appearing anywhere is extremely slim. Operating costs are above income on nearly every route of every operator with things like insurance killing off most people who would try. That was the final straw for Green Bus. Franchising isn't an instant answer either, Go North West are in a complete mess in Manchester with staff that were TUPEd over to them leaving and going back to Stagecoach and Diamond. Being replaced by Agency drivers on £1,200 per week, Go NW will also be paying the Agency a fee for supplying drivers on top and still many buses are missing. ex Arriva drivers are also commenting about how bad it is working for them.
There's the quality aspect too.
When Choice and TWM entered into the Superline agreement, it was Choice that needed to drastically up their game, not only with the fleet, but drivers' appearance, mentality and (in some cases) their driving habits.
It was a very difficult project to manage - changing the fleet was the easy part, changing hearts and minds of hardened drivers who'd worked for TWM and had been conditioned by Choice to compete, but now not to!
Can you imagine a partnership between, let's say, NXWM and Let's GO! on the WN1 corridor? I doubt that Let's GO! have the ability to invest in the appropriate fleet and maintain the levels of quality service delivery required!
I recall another alternative.
Several years ago Solent Blue Line contracted the operation of a couple of its commercial Southampton routes to an independent: Marchwood Motorways. I didn't see it in action myself, but I think that Solent Blue Line provided the vehicles, which were in its livery, and the routes were advertised as Solent Blue Line routes. The arrangement lasted for a number of years.
Could it work in the West Midlands now? As well as taking on the same quality standards as NX, a willing operator would need to have enough drivers ... so I think not.
Quote from: Justin Tyme on October 26, 2023, 10:56:13 PMI recall another alternative.
Several years ago Solent Blue Line contracted the operation of a couple of its commercial Southampton routes to an independent: Marchwood Motorways. I didn't see it in action myself, but I think that Solent Blue Line provided the vehicles, which were in its livery, and the routes were advertised as Solent Blue Line routes. The arrangement lasted for a number of years.
Could it work in the West Midlands now? As well as taking on the same quality standards as NX, a willing operator would need to have enough drivers ... so I think not.
I think a significant factor of unpopularity with working for NX is their (in my opinion) over the top management. Whilst there will be those who defend them on this very forum, I do think subcontracting certain services could work well for NX; those services that have a fair bit of dead mileage from the depot. So in other words, driving NX services but not subject to their driver policies.
There was a similar arrangement in Bristol a few years ago where the Metrobus contract was awarded to First but they sub'd it out to CT Plus. The majority of the drivers were ex First. The ticket machines were all supplied by First and the ability to issue First tickets, but the management was CT Plus. It worked well, until the company collapsed (for other reasons).
Or perhaps it's pointless and one day the whole lot will be franchised out...
If the 74 is going to be sprint2 why not invest in bus lanes along the whole A41 surely this will speed up journeys
Quote from: Ginger66 on December 03, 2023, 08:33:59 AMIf the 74 is going to be sprint2 why not invest in bus lanes along the whole A41 surely this will speed up journeys
Sprint 2?
You mean Cross City
Quote from: Ginger66 on December 03, 2023, 08:33:59 AMIf the 74 is going to be sprint2 why not invest in bus lanes along the whole A41 surely this will speed up journeys
not a bad idea because the entire 74 from Birmingham to West Brom is just a big traffic jam
Quote from: spacecowboy150 on December 03, 2023, 01:30:02 PMnot a bad idea because the entire 74 from Birmingham to West Brom is just a big traffic jam
True but I think maybe making Birmingham Road wider and the Biggest issue as a West Brom fan and that has always been issue the J1 Island. I think the Bus Lanes would just mean people park in them but then the 74 and most other traffic could use the Soho Road as Normal. Or make it a Red Route
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on December 03, 2023, 02:21:55 PMTrue but I think maybe making Birmingham Road wider and the Biggest issue as a West Brom fan and that has always been issue the J1 Island. I think the Bus Lanes would just mean people park in them but then the 74 and most other traffic could use the Soho Road as Normal. Or make it a Red Route
Great idea making soho Road a red route, good luck enforcing it though as parking round the soho road area is a nightmare as it is
Quote from: Lukeee on December 03, 2023, 08:16:56 PMGreat idea making soho Road a red route, good luck enforcing it though as parking round the soho road area is a nightmare as it is
I know but then encourage the people to use the 74
Quote from: BlackCountryBusSpotter on December 03, 2023, 02:21:55 PMTrue but I think maybe making Birmingham Road wider and the Biggest issue as a West Brom fan and that has always been issue the J1 Island. I think the Bus Lanes would just mean people park in them but then the 74 and most other traffic could use the Soho Road as Normal. Or make it a Red Route
Absolutely, the J1 island is horrible at the best of times. Also, the 74 avoids the Birmingham Road completely when West Brom play at home
Quote from: Sh4318 on December 04, 2023, 11:17:25 AMAbsolutely, the J1 island is horrible at the best of times. Also, the 74 avoids the Birmingham Road completely when West Brom play at home
Oh I know but J1 still needs work the amount of times even when West Brom aren't at home it is diverted via Smethwick due to J1 is ridiculous.