WM Bus Photos Forum

No 9 corridor going first, first play. So is this separate to the gold Corridors?


I suspect the East of Brum will be last as normal, even with all the planned redevelopments.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/business-news/sprint-buses-down-hagley-road-7529015

Don't make me laugh how's this meant to sprint up broad street most of it is now single lane either way.

It creates more questions than it answers the article, for instance

Will the 9 between Birmingham & Stourbridge continue or will this replace it between City & Quinton and we will see a return of the 130?

How can you call it Sprint, unless you create seperate lanes to be used, which seems very costly and with space at a premium along the Hagley Road, how can it be achieved?

They've recently announced funding to extend the tramway to Edgbaston - will it not go up Broad Street? I wonder if can you combine tram and Sprint.

If the Sprint route is to only run as far as Quinton, then it will not be upgrading or replacing the 9 bus route.

Although depending on how it takes off, it could see an overall reduction in the frequency of the 9 service, with maybe additional short workings between Stourbridge and Quinton, depending on how loadings are affected. If the bulk of the current patronage of the 9 who only use the service between Birmingham and Quinton switch to the new Sprint service, loadings will be affected across the whole route.

Quote from: 2900 on August 01, 2014, 09:38:22 AM
Don't make me laugh how's this meant to sprint up broad street most of it is now single lane either way.

When the bus only bit at the bottom for the Tunnel closures gets made permanent, stopping cars using it as a through route it will help

The Hagley Road corridor certainly needs a rapid transit system of some sort, whether Sprint, buses or trams.   However, there is more I need to know before I can give it my support.

Three questions for "the powers that be": -

• Will the current level of service be maintained at stops along Broad Street and Hagley Road not served by Sprint?
• Will the current network of services continuing beyond Quinton be maintained?
• If not, why not?

Quote from: Justin Tyme on August 01, 2014, 07:14:52 PM
The Hagley Road corridor certainly needs a rapid transit system of some sort, whether Sprint, buses or trams.   However, there is more I need to know before I can give it my support.

Three questions for "the powers that be": -

• Will the current level of service be maintained at stops along Broad Street and Hagley Road not served by Sprint?
• Will the current network of services continuing beyond Quinton be maintained?
• If not, why not?

Please feel free to ask your questions and give comments via the questionnaire on the Centro website:
http://www.centro.org.uk/transport/sprint/

Coventry Road to the airport will be next. If you go on the Centro website.

It wont happen, and im sure centro have already tried something like this

Sprint no9 route are these buses just modern day bendibuses?
And would they based at a new purpose built garage/ yard

Quote from: karl724223 on August 21, 2014, 04:52:55 PM
Sprint no9 route are these buses just modern day bendibuses?
And would they based at a new purpose built garage/ yard

They are pretty much the same as First FTR's, a garage capable of maintaining 18M artics should suffice

Is it going to be NXWM or will operators have to bid for the privilege ??

Quote from: monkeyjoe on August 21, 2014, 07:31:54 PM
Is it going to be NXWM or will operators have to bid for the privilege ??

It will be NXWM, Sprint will be provided as part of the on-going partnership between NXWM & Centro that also included NXWM putting 300 new buses in to its fleet by 2015.

Not THIS bi-articulated horrorshow, surely?

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2014/09/centro-ponders-jumbo-artics-for-sprint-scheme/

Quote from: The Real 4778 on September 04, 2014, 01:03:50 PM
Not THIS bi-articulated horrorshow, surely?

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2014/09/centro-ponders-jumbo-artics-for-sprint-scheme/

Extract from article above:

A Statutory Quality Partnership Scheme will be introduced on the Sprint corridor with operators expected to be invited to submit tenders for operation of Sprint services later this year.

I was under the impression that Sprint was part of the 3 year NX/Centro Quality partnership and Sprint would therefore by operated by NX as per the Metro?

Hate those Streetcars used in York and places, with an absolute passion.

Presumably a circus troupe is expected to bid for the concession.

Eugh.

Who has a fighting chance of winning a tender vs NXWM that would be interesting if they didn't get it. Stagecoach or some European/ Asian operator lol

Quote from: monkeyjoe on September 04, 2014, 05:25:12 PM
Who has a fighting chance of winning a tender vs NXWM that would be interesting if they didn't get it. Stagecoach or some European/ Asian operator lol

Anybody has if Centro are providing the vehicles as there would be no capital needed up front.

Quote from: Tony on September 04, 2014, 06:23:02 PM

Quote from: monkeyjoe on September 04, 2014, 05:25:12 PM
Who has a fighting chance of winning a tender vs NXWM that would be interesting if they didn't get it. Stagecoach or some European/ Asian operator lol

Anybody has if Centro are providing the vehicles as there would be no capital needed up front.

But surely without NX operating Sprint, it would suffer the same problems that competing operators have trying to compete against NX's travelcard. If NX didn't win the first Sprint, they could just flood the B'Ham - Quniton corridor with high spec buses?

Unless Winston NXWM and the sprint operator, along with centro, set up a quality partnership similar to the Merseyside 1/2

Quote from: the trainbasher on September 04, 2014, 07:05:22 PM
Unless Winston NXWM and the sprint operator, along with centro, set up a quality partnership similar to the Merseyside 1/2

How would that work then? As i'm not familiar with the Merseyside setup

Quote from: Winston on September 04, 2014, 07:36:54 PM

Quote from: the trainbasher on September 04, 2014, 07:05:22 PM
Unless Winston NXWM and the sprint operator, along with centro, set up a quality partnership similar to the Merseyside 1/2

How would that work then? As i'm not familiar with the Merseyside setup

This page from stagecoach explains it better

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/Quality-Bus-Network.aspx

Sprint appears to be flashy bendy buses that will be sharing bus lanes with existing services.

Quote from: Winston on September 04, 2014, 06:31:59 PM

Quote from: Tony on September 04, 2014, 06:23:02 PM

Quote from: monkeyjoe on September 04, 2014, 05:25:12 PM
Who has a fighting chance of winning a tender vs NXWM that would be interesting if they didn't get it. Stagecoach or some European/ Asian operator lol

Anybody has if Centro are providing the vehicles as there would be no capital needed up front.

But surely without NX operating Sprint, it would suffer the same problems that competing operators have trying to compete against NX's travelcard. If NX didn't win the first Sprint, they could just flood the B'Ham - Quniton corridor with high spec buses?

Perhaps Centro would finally be forced to address their neglect of the currently uncompetitive and draconian multi operator offering.

Am I the only person aghast at the prospect of NX automatically being handed yet another brick with which to expand their already far too extensive monoploy? Clearly.

Quote from: andy on September 04, 2014, 10:01:28 PM

Quote from: Winston on September 04, 2014, 06:31:59 PM

Quote from: Tony on September 04, 2014, 06:23:02 PM

Quote from: monkeyjoe on September 04, 2014, 05:25:12 PM
Who has a fighting chance of winning a tender vs NXWM that would be interesting if they didn't get it. Stagecoach or some European/ Asian operator lol

Anybody has if Centro are providing the vehicles as there would be no capital needed up front.

But surely without NX operating Sprint, it would suffer the same problems that competing operators have trying to compete against NX's travelcard. If NX didn't win the first Sprint, they could just flood the B'Ham - Quniton corridor with high spec buses?

Perhaps Centro would finally be forced to address their neglect of the currently uncompetitive and draconian multi operator offering.

Am I the only person aghast at the prospect of NX automatically being handed yet another brick with which to expand their already far too extensive monoploy? Clearly.

NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better. No other company including First, Arriva, Diamond, Stagecoach etc would offer a better service than currently (and the number of terrible cowboys on the roads actually suggest having just 1 company running everything would be better for generating growth in bus travel as clapped out Darts are not a good advertisement just as Nationals weren't in the 1990s and look what happened to most of the operators who came on the scene then))and having multi operators is not a positive.
Yes some key routes would get more investment with competition but you can bet your bottom dollar that many other less profile routes would suffer and end up either having to be subsidised (and costing the tax payer more) or being scrapped altogether. I have worked in the industry for a number of years and not once have I seen a better 'REALISTIC' alternative for the West Mids (ie not a dream world of Hybrids on every route and 50p fares).
I think Centro are lucky to have NXWM and clearly the relationship does work otherwise it wouldn't have lasted almost 30 years.

Quote from: j789 on September 04, 2014, 10:38:59 PM
NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better.

Erm.....why?

And is that a good reason to create a permanent monopoly? And exclude new entrants?

I would suggest that the relationship between Centro and NX has only lasted so long due to Centro being one of the least progressive and most stagnant PTE's in the country with low standards and aspirations.

Quote from: andy on September 04, 2014, 10:46:11 PM

Quote from: j789 on September 04, 2014, 10:38:59 PM
NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better.

Erm.....why?

And is that a good reason to create a permanent monopoly? And exclude new entrants?

I would suggest that the relationship between Centro and NX has only lasted so long due to Centro being one of the least progressive and most stagnant PTE's in the country with low standards and aspirations.

But compared to all the other PTE areas in the country - has passenger decline in the West Mids been worse than those areas. Broadly it is similar - worse in some, better in others so I disagree with your criticism. The problems facing bus travel cannot be solved through competition, it just cannot work in the long term. Partnership perhaps but not competition.

Quote from: Winston on September 12, 2014, 01:41:17 PM
Birmingham Central would seem the most logical to house Sprint bendi's with it's large open plan parking areas. I'm still not convinced that NX wont operate Sprint, it would be daft to have a different operator running Sprint when NX run the Metro & the three quarters of all the buses in the region. Sprint needs to compliment existing Hagley Rd services by attracting new passengers, not by simply taking them off the buses & the frequency of those is cut.

I disagree slightly with you there; I watched an interesting video about BRT in Bogota, Columbia (which they've had for about 10 years now!) a while back; their system has 'regular' buses acting as shuttles which 'feed' the BRT routes, ie you get a bus to the BRT interchange and then change onto the BRT bus to your destination. The BRT buses are very frequent, so are 'turn-up-and-go'.

So for Sprint to actually be successful here, it would need to mostly replace the current Hagley Road services, and be easy enough for bus passengers to transfer from connecting bus services. For example say, the current 9 service would operate frequently as it does now between Stourbridge and Quinton, with maybe infrequent journeys continuing to the City Centre, but the majority of passengers would be transferring to/from the Sprint service. Likewise for a service such as the 120, which would operate between Dudley and Bearwood only as a 'feeder service', where passengers can transfer to/from the Sprint service at Bearwood.

The positives from this to be gained are that these 'local' services can be more reliable, as they no longer have to travel in and out of the city centre, as the Sprint BRT buses will handle this part of the journey. But it will all hinge on accessibility and integration, the main one being able to use bus passes and day tickets, so as not to increase the cost of using the new network. Otherwise, it will just end up as a novelty white elephant, that hardly anyone will use.

Quote from: Stu on September 12, 2014, 07:44:17 PM

Quote from: Winston on September 12, 2014, 01:41:17 PM
Birmingham Central would seem the most logical to house Sprint bendi's with it's large open plan parking areas. I'm still not convinced that NX wont operate Sprint, it would be daft to have a different operator running Sprint when NX run the Metro & the three quarters of all the buses in the region. Sprint needs to compliment existing Hagley Rd services by attracting new passengers, not by simply taking them off the buses & the frequency of those is cut.

I disagree slightly with you there; I watched an interesting video about BRT in Bogota, Columbia (which they've had for about 10 years now!) a while back; their system has 'regular' buses acting as shuttles which 'feed' the BRT routes, ie you get a bus to the BRT interchange and then change onto the BRT bus to your destination. The BRT buses are very frequent, so are 'turn-up-and-go'.

So for Sprint to actually be successful here, it would need to mostly replace the current Hagley Road services, and be easy enough for bus passengers to transfer from connecting bus services. For example say, the current 9 service would operate frequently as it does now between Stourbridge and Quinton, with maybe infrequent journeys continuing to the City Centre, but the majority of passengers would be transferring to/from the Sprint service. Likewise for a service such as the 120, which would operate between Dudley and Bearwood only as a 'feeder service', where passengers can transfer to/from the Sprint service at Bearwood.

The positives from this to be gained are that these 'local' services can be more reliable, as they no longer have to travel in and out of the city centre, as the Sprint BRT buses will handle this part of the journey. But it will all hinge on accessibility and integration, the main one being able to use bus passes and day tickets, so as not to increase the cost of using the new network. Otherwise, it will just end up as a novelty white elephant, that hardly anyone will use.

Thanks for that Stu, for that to work as you have seen in Bogota, Columbia, NXWM would need to be awarded the rights to operate Sprint as per the Metro and NXWM's network needs to be integrated to providing feeder services to Sprint as you suggest. Centro do not have the right legally for Sprint to take over the Quinton - B'ham section of the Hagley Road corridor and tell NXWM to alter it's service without  NXWM being involved in the project. Otherwise when Sprint is launched, the way you see if working from previous models NXWM are going to potentially loose a large chunk of revenue from the lucrative Hagley Road services, Pensnett Garage would find itself with approx 15-20 buses redundant along with all the drivers and a massive drop in garage Pvr NX pass holders would be barred from using Sprint and no doubt NX pass holders would be barred from using Sprint. All of which I can't see happening as Sprint would be another White Elephant  Back when the Metro was launched the Timesaver 979 was scrapped & the 79 cut short to WB, however the Soho Rd services are busier than ever with the Metro running a parallel, this is despite NX operating both.

I know some say NX have a monopoly on routes & with their travelcard in the West Midlands, and that another bus group should operate Sprint. But I don't think that there is anyone that can argue that NX isn't invested heavily over the past 3 years in the West Midlands with new buses & refurbishing it's existing fleet and is continuing to do so with the ADL 5 year deal. Once the next 175 new buses join during 2015, the oldest buses in the fleet will be the Y-reg Tridents 4125 onwards which will be 14 years old, I expect most if not all of the Presidents will have left the fleet once that lot arrive. Ultimately NXWM's travelcard is so popular because if significantly cheaper than anything NWM can offer and covers most routes/areas anyway. As long as Centro keep NX on their toes with the Quality Partnerships & threat of bring other operators in, I think Sprint should be integrated in to NXWM bus network & with The Metro even if NX only run Sprint on an management contract with Centro/NWM setting the pricing structyure etc

Quote from: andy on September 04, 2014, 10:46:11 PM

Quote from: j789 on September 04, 2014, 10:38:59 PM
NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better.

Erm.....why?

And is that a good reason to create a permanent monopoly? And exclude new entrants?

I would suggest that the relationship between Centro and NX has only lasted so long due to Centro being one of the least progressive and most stagnant PTE's in the country with low standards and aspirations.

Andy i fully agree with you buddy. when compared to Tfgm (Up in Manchester). Easy comparison is the Tram routes Metrolink vs Midland metro.

Quote from: dayvid on September 13, 2014, 06:13:15 PM

Quote from: andy on September 04, 2014, 10:46:11 PM

Quote from: j789 on September 04, 2014, 10:38:59 PM
NXWM are far from perfect but compared to the other companies in the region are much better.

Erm.....why?

And is that a good reason to create a permanent monopoly? And exclude new entrants?

I would suggest that the relationship between Centro and NX has only lasted so long due to Centro being one of the least progressive and most stagnant PTE's in the country with low standards and aspirations.

Andy i fully agree with you buddy. when compared to Tfgm (Up in Manchester). Easy comparison is the Tram routes Metrolink vs Midland metro.

Despite Birmingham being the 'second city' Manchester gets far more government funding for transport related projects than the West Midlands. You've only got to look at the number of Hybrids that have been funded by various Green Bus Funds in Manchester compared with the West Midlands. TfGM are even now using brand new Hybrid Versa's on school routes which is a complete waste, as they'll spend most of their day/lives parked up in the depot.

Quote from: Winston on September 13, 2014, 03:07:52 PM

Quote from: Stu on September 12, 2014, 07:44:17 PM

Quote from: Winston on September 12, 2014, 01:41:17 PM
Birmingham Central would seem the most logical to house Sprint bendi's with it's large open plan parking areas. I'm still not convinced that NX wont operate Sprint, it would be daft to have a different operator running Sprint when NX run the Metro & the three quarters of all the buses in the region. Sprint needs to compliment existing Hagley Rd services by attracting new passengers, not by simply taking them off the buses & the frequency of those is cut.

I disagree slightly with you there; I watched an interesting video about BRT in Bogota, Columbia (which they've had for about 10 years now!) a while back; their system has 'regular' buses acting as shuttles which 'feed' the BRT routes, ie you get a bus to the BRT interchange and then change onto the BRT bus to your destination. The BRT buses are very frequent, so are 'turn-up-and-go'.

So for Sprint to actually be successful here, it would need to mostly replace the current Hagley Road services, and be easy enough for bus passengers to transfer from connecting bus services. For example say, the current 9 service would operate frequently as it does now between Stourbridge and Quinton, with maybe infrequent journeys continuing to the City Centre, but the majority of passengers would be transferring to/from the Sprint service. Likewise for a service such as the 120, which would operate between Dudley and Bearwood only as a 'feeder service', where passengers can transfer to/from the Sprint service at Bearwood.

The positives from this to be gained are that these 'local' services can be more reliable, as they no longer have to travel in and out of the city centre, as the Sprint BRT buses will handle this part of the journey. But it will all hinge on accessibility and integration, the main one being able to use bus passes and day tickets, so as not to increase the cost of using the new network. Otherwise, it will just end up as a novelty white elephant, that hardly anyone will use.

Thanks for that Stu, for that to work as you have seen in Bogota, Columbia, NXWM would need to be awarded the rights to operate Sprint as per the Metro and NXWM's network needs to be integrated to providing feeder services to Sprint as you suggest. Centro do not have the right legally for Sprint to take over the Quinton - B'ham section of the Hagley Road corridor and tell NXWM to alter it's service without  NXWM being involved in the project. Otherwise when Sprint is launched, the way you see if working from previous models NXWM are going to potentially loose a large chunk of revenue from the lucrative Hagley Road services, Pensnett Garage would find itself with approx 15-20 buses redundant along with all the drivers and a massive drop in garage Pvr NX pass holders would be barred from using Sprint and no doubt NX pass holders would be barred from using Sprint. All of which I can't see happening as Sprint would be another White Elephant  Back when the Metro was launched the Timesaver 979 was scrapped & the 79 cut short to WB, however the Soho Rd services are busier than ever with the Metro running a parallel, this is despite NX operating both.

I know some say NX have a monopoly on routes & with their travelcard in the West Midlands, and that another bus group should operate Sprint. But I don't think that there is anyone that can argue that NX isn't invested heavily over the past 3 years in the West Midlands with new buses & refurbishing it's existing fleet and is continuing to do so with the ADL 5 year deal. Once the next 175 new buses join during 2015, the oldest buses in the fleet will be the Y-reg Tridents 4125 onwards which will be 14 years old, I expect most if not all of the Presidents will have left the fleet once that lot arrive. Ultimately NXWM's travelcard is so popular because if significantly cheaper than anything NWM can offer and covers most routes/areas anyway. As long as Centro keep NX on their toes with the Quality Partnerships & threat of bring other operators in, I think Sprint should be integrated in to NXWM bus network & with The Metro even if NX only run Sprint on an management contract with Centro/NWM setting the pricing structyure etc

Dare I say that Sprint will only be successful if SWIFT is fully rolled out and operational for ALL forms of public transport in the West Midlands (bus, rail, tram) in much the same way as Oyster is in London?

That's true multi-modal integrated transport. I can arrive anywhere in London, and travel around by bus, train or Tube, just by touching my Oyster card on the readers. All I have to worry about is having either an appropriate season ticket loaded, or enough credit!

My vision of the future, is of very few regular buses in the city centre, but people using Sprint or Metro, both of which ferry people in and out of the city centre. There would need to be Sprint or Metro lines along key routes, north, west, south and east, linking to interchanges around the outskirts of the city centre, where people then change onto local bus services if required, to continue their onward journeys. And interchanges further out, linking to local services in outlying areas.

As an example in theory, say I'm travelling from home in Acocks Green to my parents house near Oldbury. I'd get my 'local bus' the 37, to a BRT interchange on the Stratford Road in Sparkbrook, where I'd get on a Sprint bus into the city centre terminus, change onto another Sprint bus going along the Hagley Road out to a BRT interchange at Bearwood, and then join the 'local' 120 bus to get to my parents. All the time, I'm not having to buy tickets, I just touch a SWIFT card on the readers. And the Sprint buses are running every five minutes or so, offering a real 'turn-up-and-go' service, and shouldn't have any major capacity issues.

It's just a theory, and there would need to be massive infrastructure changes to support this theory, but I just wanted to share an example of how I feel Sprint/BRT needs to work in order to be successful. Otherwise it will really just be 'the bus that thinks its a tram' and only used by people who can afford to do so.

Is this whole Sprint thing definitely going to happen this time round? Like the Coventry & Warwickshire one that was all fully constructed with services starting 2 years ago - oh, wait, none of that actually happened, sorry!

Don't get me wrong, I personally agree with the whole thing and would love it to happen, but it's not just going to be one of those things they get everyone hyped up about only to never hear a thing about it ever again, as per the above Sprint flop.

Not sure on those worm buses either, look what happened with London and their artics, I can see it being round 2 here with those, people demanding they get rid of them and when that time finally comes, they have to be scrapped because nobody else wants them.

I can't remember all the exact plans for these Sprint corridors now but would it eventually connect all the Midlands Towns/Cities with Birmingham? I would think that that would be a good idea to do, if they haven't thought of it already.

Fingers crossed they do actually bother with it this time round!

Quote from: Stu on September 13, 2014, 07:36:32 PM
Dare I say that Sprint will only be successful if SWIFT is fully rolled out and operational for ALL forms of public transport in the West Midlands (bus, rail, tram) in much the same way as Oyster is in London?

That's true multi-modal integrated transport. I can arrive anywhere in London, and travel around by bus, train or Tube, just by touching my Oyster card on the readers. All I have to worry about is having either an appropriate season ticket loaded, or enough credit!

My vision of the future, is of very few regular buses in the city centre, but people using Sprint or Metro, both of which ferry people in and out of the city centre. There would need to be Sprint or Metro lines along key routes, north, west, south and east, linking to interchanges around the outskirts of the city centre, where people then change onto local bus services if required, to continue their onward journeys. And interchanges further out, linking to local services in outlying areas.

As an example in theory, say I'm travelling from home in Acocks Green to my parents house near Oldbury. I'd get my 'local bus' the 37, to a BRT interchange on the Stratford Road in Sparkbrook, where I'd get on a Sprint bus into the city centre terminus, change onto another Sprint bus going along the Hagley Road out to a BRT interchange at Bearwood, and then join the 'local' 120 bus to get to my parents. All the time, I'm not having to buy tickets, I just touch a SWIFT card on the readers. And the Sprint buses are running every five minutes or so, offering a real 'turn-up-and-go' service, and shouldn't have any major capacity issues.

It's just a theory, and there would need to be massive infrastructure changes to support this theory, but I just wanted to share an example of how I feel Sprint/BRT needs to work in order to be successful. Otherwise it will really just be 'the bus that thinks its a tram' and only used by people who can afford to do so.

That vision of the future would potentially wipe out a third of NXWM's bus fleet / business. I can't see NX being very happy about that proposal if they weren't involved with the running of Sprint, but simply providing feeder services.

For an Oyster style mutli-modal scheme to be implemented in the West Midlands, NXWM would need to relinquish it's travelcard business and by compensated accordingly by Centro, otherwise Centro would have to consider compulsory purchasing the business that's if they had the power to do so, which I suspect they don't.

Additionally, Centro don't have the power the tell NXWM to stop running the No 9 every 7/8mins (peaks) & every 10 mins (daytime) between Birmingham & Quinton just because they are introducing Sprint. For Sprint to work, NX needs to be involved for it to be integrated in the existing transport network and set-up within NXWM & Centro's quality partnership.

@Winston unless they follow the London model...

Quote from: the trainbasher on September 13, 2014, 09:33:24 PM
@Winston unless they follow the London model...

But they can't follow the London model, as Centro's hands are tied as they don't have the power to take over control of NXWM's bus routes and suddenly make them have to tender for them along with any other operators. Even if Centro did have such powers, NX would still need to be compensated financially by Centro as the bus routes are registered to NXWM. Likewise with their Travelcard business.

(as an aside, my 2000th post)

Would not the London model of bus operation work within the West Midlands, ie: Centro control all the services and they tender them out to operators who apply to run them, but as a whole service, by that i mean that any tendered journeys must be run by that operator. All fares to be managed by Centro with all passes, smartcards etc valid on all services. then Surely Sprint could be amalgamated into the services correctly, who ever is given the contract to run it?

Yes it would be a little mucky at first, but it would stop the operators who just want to make rich pickings on routes, running when they want to, & behaving inappropriately!

Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on September 13, 2014, 09:56:46 PM
(as an aside, my 2000th post)

Would not the London model of bus operation work within the West Midlands, ie: Centro control all the services and they tender them out to operators who apply to run them, but as a whole service, by that i mean that any tendered journeys must be run by that operator. All fares to be managed by Centro with all passes, smartcards etc valid on all services. then Surely Sprint could be amalgamated into the services correctly, who ever is given the contract to run it?

Yes it would be a little mucky at first, but it would stop the operators who just want to make rich pickings on routes, running when they want to, & behaving inappropriately!

As I said above, why would NXWM suddenly hand over control of their commercial route network (registered to WMT (ta NXWM) with the traffic commissioner) and their NXWM travelcard business without financial compensation?

Centro would effectively need to seize control of NXWM bus business, which is never going to happen.

Therefore, how can a London Style of operation ever be implemented in the West Midlands? Not least the amount of subsidy tax payers would need to stump up, but that's another story that's been discussed on her numerous times.

Also, don't forget the passengers.

A forced change of vehicle will not be popular unless it provides a significant time advantage. I can't see getting off a bus seat at Bearwood to have to stand on a Sprint to town going down well.  Nor would just missing a bus to Halesowen on arrival at Quinton.

Car users don't change cars in mid-journey.  I hope that planners bear this in mind and don't impose a forced change on bus users.  I am disappointed that the Sprint consultation document gives no reassurance on that score.

Quote from: Justin Tyme on September 13, 2014, 11:47:57 PM
Also, don't forget the passengers.

A forced change of vehicle will not be popular unless it provides a significant time advantage. I can't see getting off a bus seat at Bearwood to have to stand on a Sprint to town going down well.  Nor would just missing a bus to Halesowen on arrival at Quinton.

Car users don't change cars in mid-journey.  I hope that planners bear this in mind and don't impose a forced change on bus users.  I am disappointed that the Sprint consultation document gives no reassurance on that score.

I remember when Tyne & Wear PTE tried that in the 1980s with their metro. All bus route were changed to go to Metro stations with very few routes crossing the Tyne into Newcastle. Went down like a lead balloon with passengers and the through buses were soon reinstated

I'm curious what type of buses they're planning to use or would it just be a case of uprating the engines on the Scania bendy buses on the 67, and replacing them with conventional buses

Quote from: ARJ2901 on September 14, 2014, 04:40:03 PM
I'm curious what type of buses they're planning to use or would it just be a case of uprating the engines on the Scania bendy buses on the 67, and replacing them with conventional buses

A simple Google search of Sprint will find you all what you need to know:

http://www.centro.org.uk/about-us/news/2014/sprint-to-make-birmingham-debut-on-broad-street-and-hagley-road/
https://www.centro.org.uk/transport/sprint/
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/business-news/sprint-buses-down-hagley-road-7529015

Why would they use Scania Bendi's which will be 12 years old in 2016 on such a high profile route?

Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

Quote from: arrifirststage on September 14, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

Exactly! Centro will be a decade behind First Groups FTR project by the time Sprint is finally launched, have Centro not observed the massive flop that is FTR??? First Group are now stuck with these £300k machines and don't really know what to do with them......

Quote from: Winston on September 14, 2014, 08:34:33 PM

Quote from: arrifirststage on September 14, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

Exactly! Centro will be a decade behind First Groups FTR project by the time Sprint is finally launched, have Centro not observed the massive flop that is FTR??? First Group are now stuck with these £300k machines and don't really know what to do with them......

sell them to centro

Quote from: karl724223 on September 14, 2014, 08:38:44 PM

Quote from: Winston on September 14, 2014, 08:34:33 PM

Quote from: arrifirststage on September 14, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

Exactly! Centro will be a decade behind First Groups FTR project by the time Sprint is finally launched, have Centro not observed the massive flop that is FTR??? First Group are now stuck with these £300k machines and don't really know what to do with them......

sell them to centro

Knowing how on the ball Centro are, they'd probably give First Group more than they we worth  ;)

Just imagine if bus services in the WM were still publicly owned and hadnt been sold off...thered be no probs with integration/compensating companies/travelcards vs n bus etc....simple straightforward etc

Quote from: Bob on September 14, 2014, 09:04:28 PM
Just imagine if bus services in the WM were still publicly owned and hadnt been sold off...thered be no probs with integration/compensating companies/travelcards vs n bus etc....simple straightforward etc

I can't really remember how bus services & fares compared operated under WMPTE.  Fleet investment was pretty high & the fleet modern as they'd bought 910 Metrobuses (2001-2910) between 1979-1986 D-day

Yea. And it was run as a public service.  Private profit wasnt the main aim. Part of their remit was to integrate public transport in the wm

Quote from: Winston on September 14, 2014, 08:34:33 PM

Quote from: arrifirststage on September 14, 2014, 07:54:30 PM
Most of the above is yet further proof........don't let PR crackpots loose with anything.
If I wanted to go (to use a previous example) from Acocks Green to Oldbury then my own car will inevitably be easier than any bus alternative with or without changes.
By all means improve routes along Hagley Road,or any other road,by improving the road network,not by blocking the existing space with ever larger buses.
If these monsters do not work in a small place like York,they sure as he'll will be even worse in larger cities.

Exactly! Centro will be a decade behind First Groups FTR project by the time Sprint is finally launched, have Centro not observed the massive flop that is FTR??? First Group are now stuck with these £300k machines and don't really know what to do with them......

FTR flopped due to the size of the truses which would be why the bigger ones work in the rest of Europe.

Also to say the Bendi didn't work in London isn't fair either. Boris just took the view of a few to make his point and give himself some cred to get the top Torie job if DC fecks up.

Sprint will have a higher chance of working with the 24 metre Trus than an 18 metre.

Any news on SPRINT< I thought it was supposed to be up and running this year?

Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on November 29, 2015, 09:57:11 PM
Any news on SPRINT< I thought it was supposed to be up and running this year?

Not quite. See here: https://www.centro.org.uk/transport/sprint/funding-and-timescales/

The earliest we can expect to see it is 2016/2017 - of course, there has been the Paradise Circus works going on this year also, so :\ ...

Quote from: clayderman on November 29, 2015, 10:01:52 PM
Not quite. See here: https://www.centro.org.uk/transport/sprint/funding-and-timescales/

The earliest we can expect to see it is 2016/2017 - of course, there has been the Paradise Circus works going on this year also, so :\ ...

Well according to the article it will take 18 months to build, so that is 2016 out of the window.

Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on November 29, 2015, 10:06:26 PM
Well according to the article it will take 18 months to build, so that is 2016 out of the window.

what a joke,  i thought it would have been a dedicated bus lane or are they waiting for metro works to be done on Broad St/Paradise Circus before doing the bus lnae

With all the investment on the Hagley road
9 Crimson
126 platinum
X10 to become platinum
120 new electric buses 2017
Would the sprint idea be viable now

Quote from: karl724223 on September 17, 2016, 05:50:20 PM
With all the investment on the Hagley road
9 Crimson
126 platinum
X10 to become platinum
120 new electric buses 2017
Would the sprint idea be viable now

Yes, because there will still be buses along the Hagley Road, but perhaps some of these newer ones would be displaced elsewhere.

Quote from: Stu on September 17, 2016, 05:57:33 PM
Yes, because there will still be buses along the Hagley Road, but perhaps some of these newer ones would be displaced elsewhere.

but what if nx didn't win the tender ?

Quote from: karl724223 on September 17, 2016, 06:09:15 PM
but what if nx didn't win the tender ?

It's probably highly unlikely that anyone else would operate it, but if that became the case, then yes, NX would probably go all out to compete against it!

Quote from: Stu on September 17, 2016, 07:42:05 PM
It's probably highly unlikely that anyone else would operate it, but if that became the case, then yes, NX would probably go all out to compete against it!

But with the new TfWM coming in, then it'll be an integrated transport network, so there will be no competition. If the Sprint route from City to Quinton goes ahead, then I would expect the 9 to be reduced (it's already reduced to Saturdays to every 10 mins)

In tonight's express and star  there's an artical about future plans for public transport
Sprint network
Brum Hagley road  bearwood  Dudley
And  Dudley Russell's hall hospital brierley hill

Quote from: karl724223 on September 13, 2017, 05:18:48 PM
In tonight's express and star  there's an artical about future plans for public transport
Sprint network
Brum Hagley road  bearwood  Dudley
And  Dudley Russell's hall hospital brierley hill

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2017/09/12/transport-network-in-the-black-country---all-change/

Oh Jesus so they're still pressing ahead with it then? Or is this just the E&S picking up an old story?

I presume promoters are confident they will get dispensation for overlength vehicles.

Quote from: Kevin on September 14, 2017, 07:40:30 AM
Oh Jesus so they're still pressing ahead with it then? Or is this just the E&S picking up an old story?

No, it's genuine:
https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/wmca-approves-transport-plan-for-the-next-decade/

Next decade after they will actually start.

Couple of things to tidy up.

Broad Street and Bridge Street are going through modofcations to prevent cars from heading west bound from.the Hyatt, pushing more vehicles onto the ringroad. That will have it's own set of problems up at Fiveways as the underpass is in the wrong orientation ( up until recently it served cars into and out of Brum, not the ringroad which should really have been priority).

Sprint buses construction was offered to Van Hool.

Trams leave the road after Fiveways, and are planned to stay off road at least past Bearwood. The orginal route was to Dudley South via Wolverhampton road but may be shortened to a park and ride by the M5 junction. The whole of the lefthand side of Hagley Road are commercial business car parks which are eith owned be the council or can easily be CPO'd to run the route down (this plan has been ready for a couple of decades!) - off topic, another discussion, blame Mike 'Bumbling Idiot' Whitby and then the recession.

Hagley Road will be modified in layout (various areas) and the buses will have traffic control system onboard (for the traffic lights.) A Sprint Lane looks likely over Monument Road on the Ivy Bush doorstep, so no more parked cars and fighting for lanes.

There is word  of Sprint terminating at Centenary Square, which makes me wonder if the Sprints will be double-ended. I know Volvo does these but I'm pretty sure TfWM is not going with that idea.

Yes, I do think this will be a waste of time when they can ask NXBus to run a limited stop bendy bus and use bus lanes OR just build the bloody tram route.

Quote from: JoNi on September 14, 2017, 02:49:28 PM
I presume promoters are confident they will get dispensation for overlength vehicles.

"Passenger Transport" dated 22 September 2017 at page 10 carries an article regarding the Sprint plans. 
This articles starts off saying "Transport for the West Midlands appears to be stepping away from earlier plans to seek a derogation that would allow it to introduce 24-metre long bi-articulated vehicles on its plant Sprint bus rapid transt network"

News artical in express and star about sprint network again

Still waiting on this one...
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/new-sprint-bus-vital-link-3125669

Well it all looks very good on paper

Seems a bit tactless when Kenilworth station is soon to open with a service to Ricoh and beyond.

As it seems that precisely sod all has happened in the 11 years since this article was written, I think this has been confined to the dustbin!

More.......

https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/new-sprint-rapid-bus-routes-14198659#ICID=sharebar_facebook

That's good news for the region, shame the original Halesowen Sprint route has now been put back to 2026.

Hopefully they'll also drop the idea of using artic's for sprint.....

With the Commonwealth Games driving investment / imrpovements, hopefully some attention can be directed at other main bus corridors where there is much room for bus priorities.

Quote from: Tony on January 25, 2018, 02:52:52 PM
More.......

https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/new-sprint-rapid-bus-routes-14198659#ICID=sharebar_facebook

Having seen presentations on Sprint its good to see the bus stops will be able to used by both Sprint and conventional buses. The idea buses can use the Sprint lanes with laybys at stops not served by Sprint so they can overtake is also good.

Quote from: Winston on January 25, 2018, 02:59:14 PM
That's good news for the region, shame the original Halesowen Sprint route has now been put back to 2026.

Hopefully they'll also drop the idea of using artic's for sprint.....

With the Commonwealth Games driving investment / imrpovements, hopefully some attention can be directed at other main bus corridors where there is much room for bus priorities.

I wonder how it will affect the existing bus routes like the X1 and X2?

Quote from: 2206 on January 26, 2018, 09:52:30 PM
I wonder how it will affect the existing bus routes like the X1 and X2?

depends on who wins the contract to operate them or if tfwm run then inhouse

NXWM will win I reckon. If they don't win, competition from NXWM will mean it's a flop.

When will they ever learn? Passengers in this country do not like having to stand up. An article in this months Buses is about the return of double deckers to Swansea. An article in the technical press about BRT-Glider in Belfast claims the bendies will carry 105 passengers, which is more than a double decker, but in reality how many more will they carry than a 70-80 seat decker. I suggest people willl wait for the next one rather than stand up. The successful bendie operations in this country were the Red Arrow services in London and the various student services still operating. I have travelled on very heavily loaded bendies in Oslo and Stockholm so they do work effectively there. I also think that our crowded roads are against the operation of bendies here, whereas in some of the other cities of the world there are wide boulevards giving the opportunities for bus lanes, without having torestrict other traffic severely. I do, however like the bendies and still hope to get over to Coventry again before they finally go.

I agree totally. What will passengers on the X1 think when their comfy seat on a Platinum E400 becomes a place holding onto a stanchion on a crowded artic? A three-door artic can't even seat 50, and the First ftrs had fewer seats than the single deckers they replaced. All that's needed is the road improvements, then let nxwm run the routes.

Quote from: Stevo on January 27, 2018, 11:27:43 AM
I agree totally. What will passengers on the X1 think when their comfy seat on a Platinum E400 becomes a place holding onto a stanchion on a crowded artic? A three-door artic can't even seat 50, and the First ftrs had fewer seats than the single deckers they replaced. All that's needed is the road improvements, then let nxwm run the routes.

And look where First's FTR's are at only 10 years old. PVS Barnsley!

I think they should drop the Artic idea to save road/depot space & instead use long wheel base dual door double decker as per Bristol's Metrobus Project.

Quote from: Winston on January 27, 2018, 11:36:24 AM
And look where First's FTR's are at only 10 years old. PVS Barnsley!

I think they should drop the Artic idea to save road/depot space & instead use long wheel base dual door double decker as per Bristol's Metrobus Project.

I think it would be much more simpler to put the "Sprint" road priorities in place BUT use existing Platinum vehicles instead, passengers like them and if the road layout is put in place then they will be faster and more popular.

https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/sprint/
With Walsall to Birmingham being route 1, it looks like they're going to introduce that first?
Regarding the points on the map, are they all the points they plan for it to stop at, or are they just key points they've listed?

Walsall is first because of the Alexander stadium. Sprint will be a waste of money in my eyes. Just make the X51 every 6mins. Bus lanes may make the route faster but where's the other traffic going to go? Unless they make the road 3 lanes in each direction

Quote from: Chris on January 27, 2018, 05:36:37 PM
Walsall is first because of the Alexander stadium. Sprint will be a waste of money in my eyes. Just make the X51 every 6mins. Bus lanes may make the route faster but where's the other traffic going to go? Unless they make the road 3 lanes in each direction

Encouraging people to travel by public transport rather than sit in there cars in a build up of traffic presumably.

Quote from: Chris on January 27, 2018, 05:36:37 PM
Walsall is first because of the Alexander stadium. Sprint will be a waste of money in my eyes. Just make the X51 every 6mins. Bus lanes may make the route faster but where's the other traffic going to go? Unless they make the road 3 lanes in each direction

The question is, will this see the end of the X51 if NXWM win the contract to run it?

Quote from: Eric Shaw on January 27, 2018, 10:56:28 AM
When will they ever learn? Passengers in this country do not like having to stand up.

That is probably true, but then again it doesn't explain the number of people who choose to stand at the most awkward part of the bus because they don't want to have to sit next to a fellow human being.  :(

The Sprint routes, once implemented, may replace existing limited stop services along those corridors, but in the example of the X1, a service of sorts will still be needed, as the Sprint route won't be going all the way to Coventry.

There's a lot of negativity being put forward here, while I am sceptical at the best of times, we will have to wait and see how this all unfurls.

Quote from: Steve3229vp on January 27, 2018, 01:36:27 PM
I think it would be much more simpler to put the "Sprint" road priorities in place BUT use existing Platinum vehicles instead, passengers like them and if the road layout is put in place then they will be faster and more popular.

But on the other hand, these seems like a very valid suggestion, Sprint does seem at risk of being another expensive 'vanity' project like HS2.

Quote from: james99 on January 27, 2018, 06:48:37 PM
The question is, will this see the end of the X51 if NXWM win the contract to run it?

If they don't win it NX can plod along in the bus lane.....

Why not try a six wheel double decker ?
Stuff sprint

Sprint priorities and tri axle double deckers would be much better. Some Platinum Enviro 500 MMCs?

Agree; tri-axle double deckers would be far better than any articulated buses.

I've heard a figure of 23 million being bandied about for annual usage of Sprint. Whether this is just for the Walsall/Sutton/NEC first phase or more likely the whole network. I don't know what the current usage of these corridors is, do TfWM publish figures anywhere on the web?

Quote from: JoNi on January 28, 2018, 12:13:06 PM
I've heard a figure of 23 million being bandied about for annual usage of Sprint. Whether this is just for the Walsall/Sutton/NEC first phase or more likely the whole network. I don't know what the current usage of these corridors is, do TfWM publish figures anywhere on the web?

23 million passengers or poundies

Quote from: karl724223 on January 28, 2018, 12:29:59 PM
23 million passengers or poundies

Passengers didn't say how many would be standing....

23million passengers a year is 631 vehicles / departures a day carrying 100 people. When that's broken down between the whole network, that could be achievable maybe.

Monmentum is starting with exhibitions of three core corridors . Article I noticed in the birmingham Mail, I think yesterday.

Quote from: monkeyjoe on August 24, 2018, 06:07:32 PM
Monmentum is starting with exhibitions of three core corridors . Article I noticed in the birmingham Mail, I think yesterday.

Yes there are notices up at the X1/X2 shelter at Yardley Swan and  the large display at Yardley Swan by the 11A stop is scrolling that there is currently a consultation in place.
There's a consltation on the 3 corridors (Coventry Rd, Walsall Rd and B'ham to Sutton via Walmley) at the moment.
https://www.birminghambeheard.org.uk/economy/sprint/ - Consultation.
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/sprint/

Looking at the stop map it'll be interesting to see what impact this will have on the X1 and X2.

I think walsall is the wrong line due to the bcu campus been no more at perry barr.

Quote from: 2206 on August 24, 2018, 06:12:13 PM
Yes there are notices up at the X1/X2 shelter at Yardley Swan and  the large display at Yardley Swan by the 11A stop is scrolling that there is currently a consultation in place.
There's a consltation on the 3 corridors (Coventry Rd, Walsall Rd and B'ham to Sutton via Walmley) at the moment.
https://www.birminghambeheard.org.uk/economy/sprint/ - Consultation.
https://www.tfwm.org.uk/development/sprint/

Looking at the stop map it'll be interesting to see what impact this will have on the X1 and X2.

I think somebody needs dedicate a new thread to those links.

Quote from: Ginger66 on August 24, 2018, 07:38:56 PM
I think walsall is the wrong line due to the bcu campus been no more at perry barr.

Have you read the press release? This is for the Commonwealth Games! The Walsall Sprint line will serve the new Commonwealth Games 'village' being built on the BCU site, and also serving Alexander Stadium.

Sprint is the biggest waste of money since the HS2. The three routes planned each have express bus services already and it wouldnt save much time at all...
   Birmingham to Walsall (X51)
   Birmingham to Airport/Solihull (X2, X12)
   Birmingham to Sutton Coldfield (X3, X4, X5, X14).

There are consultations during september go and share your thoughts. Personally I think if they are going to persue this (which they obviously will) then a route to Wolverhampton would be better than Walsall or Sutton as the X7, X8 (previously 126) take 1hr 20mins start to finish. The again you have the tram so it would be redundant. The tram is being extended to Birmingham Airport though not in time for the Commonwealth Games (perhaps they should get working and make it happen?).

Overall, in my opinion, a waste of money.

Quote from: l.murphy123 on August 28, 2018, 06:19:29 PM
Sprint is the biggest waste of money since the HS2. The three routes planned each have express bus services already and it wouldnt save much time at all...
   Birmingham to Walsall (X51)
   Birmingham to Airport/Solihull (X2, X12)
   Birmingham to Sutton Coldfield (X3, X4, X5, X14).

There are consultations during september go and share your thoughts. Personally I think if they are going to persue this (which they obviously will) then a route to Wolverhampton would be better than Walsall or Sutton as the X7, X8 (previously 126) take 1hr 20mins start to finish. The again you have the tram so it would be redundant. The tram is being extended to Birmingham Airport though not in time for the Commonwealth Games (perhaps they should get working and make it happen?).

Overall, in my opinion, a waste of money.

It'd follow the X1 and X2 route, it has no connecion at all with the X12.
Nobody says you have to use the X7 to travel from Birmingham to Wolverhampton, use the tram or the train.
It also has no connection with the X3/X4/X5 (other than connecting Birmingham and Sutton), operating via Walmley, Pype Hayes and Aston, as far as I can see its supposed to connect some yet to be built residential area - https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/first-glimpse-5500-home-sutton-14422437.

Quote from: l.murphy123 on August 28, 2018, 06:19:29 PM
Sprint is the biggest waste of money since the HS2. The three routes planned each have express bus services already and it wouldnt save much time at all...
   Birmingham to Walsall (X51)
   Birmingham to Airport/Solihull (X2, X12)
   Birmingham to Sutton Coldfield (X3, X4, X5, X14).

The reason these routes have been chosen first is because of the Commonwealth Games in 2022.

The Walsall route links with the Commonwealth Village planned at Perry Barr, as well as Alexander Stadium, which will be a key venue, if not the main one.

The Airport route links with the NEC, where various events will be taking place. As well as the Airport obviously.

I'm not sure of the significance of the Sutton route to the Games, other than it linking to the new Langley and Peddimore estate developments.

The Airport Sprint route will eventually become a Metro tram route, but obviously not in time for 2022.

I have reservations about this Sprint network, while I won't say I think its a huge waste of money, I can think of better ways the money could be spent.

By all means, please do take part in the consultation and have your say, but I think we'll find this is going to go ahead regardless on peoples' general objections.

The only change I would make to Sprint network is that they use standard buses.

New bus lanes, traffic lights priority, etc included in the Sprint routes package would do wonders to reduce journey times we've all been complaining about.

Quote from: :D on August 28, 2018, 09:59:05 PM
The only change I would make to Sprint network is that they use standard buses.

New bus lanes, traffic lights priority, etc included in the Sprint routes package would do wonders to reduce journey times we've all been complaining about.

or three axel two door deckers

Sprint protest

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/commonwealth-games-sprint-birmingham-bus-15272896?fbclid=IwAR3oqO7DR2KGAuqYLevoJpJpF0-CwqBw-ZOgvsykyxD153sd3vMzPKfB1ks

With the new cycle path being built on A34 (city to perry barr), where is the Sprint going to go, there's no space left for it !

Quote from: Steve3229vp on October 14, 2018, 05:24:20 PM
Sprint protest

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/commonwealth-games-sprint-birmingham-bus-15272896?fbclid=IwAR3oqO7DR2KGAuqYLevoJpJpF0-CwqBw-ZOgvsykyxD153sd3vMzPKfB1ks

With the new cycle path being built on A34 (city to perry barr), where is the Sprint going to go, there's no space left for it !

The residents are clearly talking sense, another pointless / expensive scheme to a corridor that is more than adequately served by buses. Doesn't TfWM realize that Artics / FTR's were a fad between 1999-2006, that took up too much road & depot space with poor fuel economy. Where are most of those artics now??

Quote from: Winston on October 14, 2018, 06:01:24 PM
The residents are clearly talking sense, another pointless / expensive scheme to a corridor that is more than adequately served by buses. Doesn't TfWM realize that Artics / FTR's were a fad between 1999-2006, that took up too much road & depot space with poor fuel economy. Where are most of those artics now??

Artics do fine over in mainland Europe though it seems, so why can't they do as well over here? If it's a lack of suitable infrastructure, then surely Sprint would solve that.

Quote from: StourValley98 on October 14, 2018, 06:06:58 PM
Artics do fine over in mainland Europe though it seems, so why can't they do as well over here? If it's a lack of suitable infrastructure, then surely Sprint would solve that.

The reason attics do better in mainland Europe is most of the cities are far more compact, so journies are shorter meaning people are willing to stand. Double decks are generally restricted to 4m height as well which isn't perfect for city work.

A 70 seat double deck will nearly always be more efficient than a 50 seat bendy in the UK

Quote from: StourValley98 on October 14, 2018, 06:06:58 PM
Artics do fine over in mainland Europe though it seems, so why can't they do as well over here? If it's a lack of suitable infrastructure, then surely Sprint would solve that.

Surely, the fact that there's numerous Citaro artics sat in fields that have been for sale for years at £10k & less with no takers will tell you that artics will never work over here. First have scrapped FTR's at just over 10 years old, some of which were in store for a number of those years. Other than airport / car park shuttles which travel short distances / people accept standing up, they have no place in this country, the double decker will always rule as the biggest people mover.

All of the proposed Sprint corridors already have more than adequate bus services, TfWM would be better spending the money on infrastructure improvements to give buses more priority, ban cars & lorries from certain City Centre streets and build park & ride sites local to major corridors in to the City and serve them with high spec / frequent dedicated buses aimed at reducing congestion.

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter what the results of any public consultation might say, this is the kind of project that will go ahead anyway regardless.

The decision has been made already, these public consulation exercises are just to give the appearance of some semblance of what is left of democracy in this country.

While there may be some case in favour of Sprint routes elsewhere, certainly with regard to the A34 corridor north of Brmingham, it would appear that most people see nothing wrong with the current express bus routes already provided.

Absolutely!

They do say things come in three's, makes sense to have another White Elephant to go with the Metro and HS2!

Quote from: V89MOA on October 14, 2018, 09:38:40 PM
They do say things come in three's, makes sense to have another White Elephant to go with the Metro and HS2!

I well recall local press loving posting film and pictures of half empty HS1 regional trains when they first started, claiming a white elephant - they're full to standing capacity these days in the peaks (12 coaches), everyone seemingly willing to pay a surcharge of £5 per return journey for the privilege of travelling high speed for some of the journey - HS2 won't be a white elephant and I seriously doubt the Metro is. It's a god send everywhere else trams operate so I can't see why it would be in the West Midlands. My 20 min tram journey in the London suburbs takes 35 mins off peak by bus when there's  no congestion or traffic disruption - and the trams are packed.

Regarding bendibuses, the history is of course that they went out of favour for political reasons in London purely and simply, and that seemingly put paid to them everywhere else. The alleged operational problems were more an excuse to support the political decision rather than reality. Anyone who used them on the 507 Waterloo to Victoria stations would concur with their ability to hoover up a vast number of passengers in a minuscule space in time. The replacement single deckers needed larger numbers.

One day someone might publish the extra cost to the taxpayer of the 'political' expedients in London to get rid of bendibuses and introduce that 'New Routemaster' - both unnecessary political expedients at an alleged time of austerity!! I'm also not totally convinced on Sprint either though.

The dual door thing in London was also inextricably linked to LTs preoccupation with using entry turnstiles on one person operated buses which they persevered with until the early 70s but required a centre door for passengers to leave. Turnstiles were a disaster and totally unnecessary, as are dual doors in much of London.

I'm not necessarily against the vehicles themselves, but the way the whole project is being done

The A34 route in question in the Birmingham Mail article has the one major drawback being that it isn't going to be better than the current offering, as the Sprint service will stop in more places than the current Platinum bus routes so will simply be less popular. And despite all the planned priority measures there is no plan to improve the Scott Arms junction, which will be the major stumbling block.

The main reason for the backlash against it on the Walsall Road is that the Sprint lane will take up what people currently think is a parking lane (incorrect, it's a lane for residents to safely reverse out of their driveway without pulling straight into traffic), and that they've been told they won't be able to do the same if it were a bus lane - not entirely sure how true that is. Likewise the rumour that conventional buses will be pushed out into traffic and the segregated lane for Sprint only - not sure how true that is either

Quote from: V89MOA on October 14, 2018, 09:38:40 PM
They do say things come in three's, makes sense to have another White Elephant to go with the Metro and HS2!

Cheer up V89MOA there's a rumour that the need for a red flag to proceed moving vehicles is being re-introduced and that the line of route of HS2 and the Metro is being reconsidered as possible grazing grounds for dinosaurs!

Quote from: don on October 15, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
I well recall local press loving posting film and pictures of half empty HS1 regional trains when they first started, claiming a white elephant - they're full to standing capacity these days in the peaks (12 coaches), everyone seemingly willing to pay a surcharge of £5 per return journey for the privilege of travelling high speed for some of the journey - HS2 won't be a white elephant and I seriously doubt the Metro is. It's a god send everywhere else trams operate so I can't see why it would be in the West Midlands. My 20 min tram journey in the London suburbs takes 35 mins off peak by bus when there's  no congestion or traffic disruption - and the trams are packed.

Regarding bendibuses, the history is of course that they went out of favour for political reasons in London purely and simply, and that seemingly put paid to them everywhere else. The alleged operational problems were more an excuse to support the political decision rather than reality. Anyone who used them on the 507 Waterloo to Victoria stations would concur with their ability to hoover up a vast number of passengers in a minuscule space in time. The replacement single deckers needed larger numbers.

One day someone might publish the extra cost to the taxpayer of the 'political' expedients in London to get rid of bendibuses and introduce that 'New Routemaster' - both unnecessary political expedients at an alleged time of austerity!! I'm also not totally convinced on Sprint either though.

The dual door thing in London was also inextricably linked to LTs preoccupation with using entry turnstiles on one person operated buses which they persevered with until the early 70s but required a centre door for passengers to leave. Turnstiles were a disaster and totally unnecessary, as are dual doors in much of London.

HS1 only cost £7.3bn, a bargain compared to HS2... It also carries significantly less passengers than the predictions that were made before it opened, despite how full it may look. HS2 has split opinion, many say it will be a godsend, equally as many say it will be a waste of money. Will we truly know until it is done? To begin with I didn't mind the concept but as things have progressed my opinion has rapidly turned. Some people may use it, but I can't see the service making any money, especially when this line already has competing end to end services (which could comfortably compete at much cheaper prices), and the future of the planned connecting HS3 links is looking evermore uncertain by the day, it looks as likely as it ever has that HS2 will just be an isolated line, especially with the prospect of a general election creeping it's way forward any month now...
Every day we are learning more and more of the REAL facts of HS2, rather than the rose tinted spin of the last few years from across the political parties, one member of Theresa May's own cabinet admitting this week the final bill could potentially rise to as much as £100 Billion, granted that is an extreme it is also a demonstration of just how easy it is to lose sight of the point where a project goes from being good value for money to an expensive mistake. Bearing in mind the original quoted cost was £32.7bn, the current estimated quote is £56bn, you are telling me the increased costs will not ultimately end up being passed on to passengers once the service is operational? It would be considerably more than a fiver too! More and more people are speaking out now as the project advances and the real story is becoming clear. They say this project represents good value for money and will be affordable to all, I worry...

The Metro which hasn't made a profit since it opened in 1999, and has done naff all to make public transport better for the majority of residents in Birmingham? Brilliant if you live in the Black Country and enjoy paying higher fares of course! The current bus and railway networks are a far bigger success story and considering that buses are capable of reaching all areas of the cities and surrounding areas, investing in existing infrastructure should be the priority to make things better and easier for passengers. Instead every decision taken by tfwm and the councils over the last few years seems to have the opposite effect! Bus Shelters no longer fit for purpose, interchanges being moved further and further away from each other, Combined cross operator schemes designed to reduce PVR while making things worse for passengers (less seats, buses that give change & buses with live tracking per hour and less buses that accept contactless for all tickets etc.), Coventry has even seen bus lanes removed... The only positive commitment I can think of is the re-opening of the Willenhall and Camp Hill railway lines, at least there is some positive change coming! I also hear tfwm are already struggling to cover the losses on the Metro and they've only had it a few months! I wonder how long it will be before other areas such as tendering start seeing the budgets cut to offset these losses... People will soon start piping up then! It'd be fascinating to compare the reliability of the Metro service now to this time last year too!

As for Sprint all I can do is laugh at tfwm's determination to throw their money away into schemes which offer no benefit to passengers, I wouldn't be surprised if Sprint was axed before even opening just to keep the Metro running! Quite what a bendibus can do that a top spec Platinum can't is beyond me, just means less seats for passengers and a bus with both more parts to go wrong and higher operating costs aswell as slower more cramped journeys for passengers at a higher price! The future, don't make me laugh...

Quote from: RW on October 15, 2018, 02:13:32 PM
Cheer up V89MOA there's a rumour that the need for a red flag to proceed moving vehicles is being re-introduced and that the line of route of HS2 and the Metro is being reconsidered as possible grazing grounds for dinosaurs!

I wouldn't be putting that idea out there, tfwm might pounce to keep the budget in line...

I can understand a lot of the frustrations you state. You've mixed a lot of issues in there - however just to take a couple:-

1) Since when was public transport and overall transport strategy intended to run at a 'profit'. That is a presumption rooted in the economics of the early 80s and has little to do with transport Policy (curiously an 'accountancy' based approach - can you guess which party?). Does road investment make a profit? I doubt users cover even the maintenance costs. Transport strategy is more than just running a local route from A to B at a profit (although that may have a part to play).

2) If HS2 costs £100 billion, have you considered the value of the 5 year roads programme - one scheme alone (A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon) is £1.5 billion - just to provide enough carriageway to remove existing queues. The fact is the WCML (along with most radial routes into London) doesn't have capacity for additional high speed use - HS2 and beyond could take a lot of domestic airline passengers (which may reduce the need for increased airport capacity).

3) I'm not sure about international passenger usage of HS1 but domestic usage is extremely high. Basically those services were provided as a sweetener for the residents of Kent for putting up with HS1 going through the County. They must make South Eastern a tidy amount these days!

4) Platinum double deckers would not fair well on a short distance, high volume route like 507 (in fact it's the sort of route Tony was referring to where bendies are successful on the continent). As an aside, I travelled on the preserved 4001 yesterday - what a smooth running and refined double decker - I was not the only person extolling its virtues (several people thinking engineering wise, it's smoother than an MMC or 4001's Trident/B7TL peers).

People in the West Midlands over generations have grown used to certain trunk routes having high traffic capacity - and thus there is high reliance on cars - I think this is a long term issue in the West Midlands and unless there is a form of congestion charging providing initiatives like Sprint may be perceived to simply create unacceptable traffic congestion and not generate the necessary modal shift.

Quote from: don on October 15, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
You've mixed a lot of issues in there - however just to take a couple:-

1) Since when was public transport and overall transport strategy intended to run at a 'profit'. That is a presumption rooted in the economics of the early 80s and has little to do with transport Policy (curiously an 'accountancy' based approach - can you guess which party?). Does road investment make a profit? I doubt users cover even the maintenance costs. Transport strategy is more than just running a local route from A to B at a profit (although that may have a part to play).

2) If HS2 costs £100 billion, have you considered the value of the 5 year roads programme - one scheme alone (A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon) is £1.5 billion - just to provide enough carriageway to remove existing queues. The fact is the WCML (along with most radial routes into London) doesn't have capacity for additional high speed use - HS2 and beyond could take a lot of domestic airline passengers (which may reduce the need for increased airport capacity).

3) I'm not sure about international passenger usage of HS1 but domestic usage is extremely high. Basically those services were provided as a sweetener for the residents of Kent for putting up with HS1 going through the County. They must make South Eastern a tidy amount these days!

4) Platinum double deckers would not fair well on a short distance, high volume route like 507 (in fact it's the sort of route Tony was referring to where bendies are successful on the continent).

People in the West Midlands over generations have grown used to certain trunk routes having high traffic capacity - and thus there is high reliance on cars - I think this is a long term issue in the West Midlands and unless there is a form of congestion charging providing initiatives like Sprint may be perceived to simply create unacceptable traffic congestion and not generate the necessary modal shift.

I merely replied about the things you quoted me on...

Strictly speaking most public transport projects don't tend to last long term unless they can either pay for themselves/are viable longer term, or without heavy subsidy from other areas as has been the case in the aforementioned projects... The question isn't solely about profit I never said it was, but getting the balance right. If a service has potential to solve issues we face with congestion, poor connectivity, future-proofing our network, brings economic benefits, yields positive results for the majority of the general public, but most importantly came at a price that was good value for money for the taxpayer, then I would welcome it regardless of how it was paid. Thing is in my opinion The Metro, HS2 and Sprint do/will not do this. Wasting silly amounts of money when we are living in a time of austerity with the NHS at breaking point, Police cuts left right and centre & people sleeping rough every night, how can anyone possibly justify spending a potential £100bn on a railway line that may or may not solve a problem, and may end up solely just linking two cities that in fairness are already reasonably well linked up just isn't sensible? I'm also at a loss as to who flies between London and Brum!
My issue is not that the money is being spent, but what it is being spent on, ie things the Majority of the public here do not want and will not use.
For the record you seem to have misunderstood me I think, I did not say HS2 would cost £100bn, I said it's an extreme, it was Esther McVile who came up with that figure just yesterday! I do not know what the final cost of HS2 will be I don't think anyone does! I know I don't believe for one minute it will be good value for money for the taxpayer, we are way past that point now.

With regards to the Platinums I'm at a loss at exactly what it is you are trying to say? NX don't and wouldn't use them on a short route like the 507, they are already in place on the X51 and by all accounts they have done a good job at bringing in more passengers on the route, to the point where the peak frequency has had to be increased. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be being invested in, better buses, freeing up pinch points, putting in place far far more bus priority measures, improving bus interchange and definitely as you say a Congestion Charge. Where exactly is the benefit in undoing all of that good now with slow, cramped and more expensive bendybuses? You mentioned the New Routemaster earlier, but that's exactly the category bendybuses fall into over here, just an overpriced fad that offers less benefits than other products already available that can do a better job for less and keep fares lower.
In short... Don't waste money trying to fix something that isn't broken!!!!

New street is bursting at the seams with WCML traffic and has no additional capacity to add more trains. HS2 is not a waste of time or money, it will create more capacity for more trains to London and less stops. For the people that created the railways, the continent is laughing at our ageing infrastructure and the fact our only high speed railway is London to Dover. Provide better infrastructure and people will use it.

You moaning about 323s being replaced by 730s that will increase capacity with longitude seating with more room for standing passengers. I welcome that instead of being cramped into a full 323 with minimal space to move due to the 3/2 seating.

The metro will help people of Dudley to get to Birmingham without getting stuck in the increasingly congested Birmingham roads. Whilst giving more of the Black Country access to rapid transit. Merry Hill will have faster links to Wolverhampton not 80 min journey on the 15!

I know you will probably think what I am saying is a load of bull but that's my opinion and it's about time the infrastructure of Birmingham had a good investment excluding in my eyes the true white elephant of the room Sprint!

Just let NX purchase E500 MMCs or for the X1 Lothian airlink platinums. The metro NEEDS new seats, Lothian trams have high back leather seats, luggage racks (when the metro goes to the airport)

I wonder if you were living in Manchester when the metrolink first start would you of thought it's a waste of money?

Quote from: SL 16 YPN on October 15, 2018, 07:54:00 PM
New street is bursting at the seams with WCML traffic and has no additional capacity to add more trains. HS2 is not a waste of time or money, it will create more capacity for more trains to London and less stops. For the people that created the railways, the continent is laughing at our ageing infrastructure and the fact our only high speed railway is London to Dover. Provide better infrastructure and people will use it.

You moaning about 323s being replaced by 730s that will increase capacity with longitude seating with more room for standing passengers. I welcome that instead of being cramped into a full 323 with minimal space to move due to the 3/2 seating.

The metro will help people of Dudley to get to Birmingham without getting stuck in the increasingly congested Birmingham roads. Whilst giving more of the Black Country access to rapid transit. Merry Hill will have faster links to Wolverhampton not 80 min journey on the 15!

I know you will probably think what I am saying is a load of bull but that's my opinion and it's about time the infrastructure of Birmingham had a good investment excluding in my eyes the true white elephant of the room Sprint!

Just let NX purchase E500 MMCs or for the X1 Lothian airlink platinums. The metro NEEDS new seats, Lothian trams have high back leather seats, luggage racks (when the metro goes to the airport)

I wonder if you were living in Manchester when the metrolink first start would you of thought it's a waste of money?

More trains pass through New Street on the Cross City line per hour than those going to/coming from London so I don't see how that works?

I haven't once mentioned the 323s in this thread so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up? Yes I think everyone who pays for travel has the basic right to expect a seat, especially when there are plenty of other options for the Cross City before Metro Style seating, hardly a train every 3 minutes is there like on the tube?

About time Birmingham got infrastructure investment? Apart from Five Ways to Bull St, most of the investment on the Metro has gone into the Black Country end... The rest is coming in the form of an overpriced Railway most people won't be able to afford, and an articulated bus system that is not needed or wanted!! Nothing to solve congestion, nothing to make buses more accessible, nothing to make using public transport cheaper or the more attractive option...

No I wouldn't because Manchester's tram system integrates very well with both existing bus and train networks, rather than pushing one out the way to make room for it, you can interchange at both the major bus and rail stations in the city centre, unlike here where the bus stops are spaced out 10 minutes apart. They also provide a decent amount of seats on their trams....

I completed a 5000 word essay on the project of HS2 and after gathering all the research I summoned it to be unnecessary however it does have some benefits. I can find the essay and summarise if anyone would be interested

2 very differing projects, both sadly a total waste of money.

HS2 with costs spiralling all the time, the effect on people having to sell there houses, the effect on the countryside will to me never really make any money. To try and recoup some of the money they will have to charge the earth for tickets, with a station that is not in the centre of Birmingham like all other stations are.

Next to sprint, again why is it needed, when the areas suggested are already well served by public transport. This idea was well on the back burner until Birmingham won the Commonwealth Games bid. Now they are trying to show off to the commonwealth wwhat a World class city Birmingham is, in my mind, yes world class in spending money on things that aren't needed and probably after the Commonwealth Games will go the way of Tracline 65, to the tip!!

The fact is that no-one knows if HS2 will attract any new traffic - no other High Speed Line has ever been built where the existing service provides 125 mph trains every twenty minutes.

Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 15, 2018, 10:35:35 PM
2 very differing projects, both sadly a total waste of money.

HS2 with costs spiralling all the time, the effect on people having to sell there houses, the effect on the countryside will to me never really make any money. To try and recoup some of the money they will have to charge the earth for tickets, with a station that is not in the centre of Birmingham like all other stations are.

Next to sprint, again why is it needed, when the areas suggested are already well served by public transport. This idea was well on the back burner until Birmingham won the Commonwealth Games bid. Now they are trying to show off to the commonwealth wwhat a World class city Birmingham is, in my mind, yes world class in spending money on things that aren't needed and probably after the Commonwealth Games will go the way of Tracline 65, to the tip!!

Curzon Street is located only round the corner from Moor Street, there are pleanty of bus services which terminate in that part of the centre as well on the Priory Queensway (just round the corner).
You say its not in the centre and the other 3 are, but its no less in the Centre than Snow Hill, if you wanted the Markets/Digbeth end of Birmingham City Centre, Snow Hill is practically on the other side of the City Centre.

I thought the Metro was proposed to be extended down there as well, if it happens to link other parts of the Centre with it.

The bottom line is that all national transport projects go through a complex process of evaluation against a whole series of indicators and Policies to determine whether their business case justifies the expenditure - before you go believing the figures being quoted for costs those will include massive risk sums to cover the risks identified. So they will be a worst case scenario. Of course, the nonsensical sensationalist stuff in London from Mr Johnson went through no such analysis to become Policy and it is a testament to the professionals who had to implement it.

Yes, predicting usage, which is done through complex modelling can be hit and miss but it generally errs on the conservative side for obvious reasons - it is true to say no one can predict usage to the nth degree but the professionals do have a very good idea. However some of it is down to predicting economic activity - and we all know how difficult that is currently owing the capital B!!

In terms of Sprint, it's highly unlikely that a business case has not been made - if it hasn't then when the planning process occurs objectors could possibly call for a legal review. I think people have got to put on a different headset - back in the early 80s integrated transport was chucked out of the window for cost saving and political reasons - what followed has developed to a decent transport system but it has been recognised that to go further outside of London, better integration must occur and the private sector can only play a part in that - so there will be change - NXWM is particularly adept at reinventing itself and repositioning to fulfill certain fairly substantial parts of the jigsaw in a professional way and is working with the Transport Authority to achieve its Policy objectives. I'm not so sure about the ability of its competitors. For instance, will anyone bring in double deckers of an appropriate quality to run a joint operation on a route?

Article about Sprint plans along the A34 being reviewed in the Express & Star - https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2018/12/29/a34-sprint-bus-plans-to-be-reviewed-after-concerns/