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Locomotive & Light-Rail => General Discussion & Questions => Topic started by: Tony on December 09, 2015, 06:01:05 PM

Title: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on December 09, 2015, 06:01:05 PM
While everyone was getting excited today about Northern Rail & Trans-Pennine the DfT issued a third press release which was the prospectus for the next West Midlands Franchise

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483213/west-midlands-prospectus.pdf
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: andy41 on December 09, 2015, 07:23:43 PM
So basically any Centro/WMR devolution is shelved until after another 7 - 9 year franchise possibly taking us up to 2026. Just in time for HS2. This makes more sense than trying to rush it through now only for everything to change again.

Question is will Govia qualify to bid seeing as they already now have 5 other franchises running into London on top of this one? Word from the DfT is that they are actually struggling to generate credible bidders at the moment following Osborne's spending review and significant cuts to DfT expenditure.

Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on December 09, 2015, 07:30:51 PM
My question is why is it called The West Midland Franchise when London & Liverpool are included?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: BK63 YWP on December 09, 2015, 07:31:38 PM
Maybe First or stagecoach might get the Midlands franchise. I wonder after nx exit from east coast trains would the government let them have another chance running a franchise?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on December 09, 2015, 07:34:41 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 09, 2015, 07:31:38 PM
Maybe First or stagecoach might get the Midlands franchise. I wonder after nx exit from east coast trains would the government let them have another chance running a franchise?

NX have already won one franchise since than and pre-qualified for three others, so I think we know the answer to your question
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on December 09, 2015, 07:40:20 PM
Quote from: Tony on December 09, 2015, 07:34:41 PM
NX have already won one franchise since than and pre-qualified for three others, so I think we know the answer to your question

More to the point, would NX want it?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Liberator9 on December 09, 2015, 09:05:05 PM
Will be interesting if Govia retain it or not - in a way I hope they do - been very satified with the service on the Snow Hill line - rarely had problems and had the 150s replaced with a modern fleet of 172s, upgrading the quality of the service. Also on a less serious note would be a shame to see the end of the livery  ;D Always thought one idea in the future would be to have a differentiation of the colours in the future - perhaps blue instead of green for the West Mids locals and Green kept for the WCML services; if there's going to be a start towards seperating the two.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on December 16, 2015, 07:40:04 PM
The consultation document for the new franchise is now available at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/486503/west-midlands-rail-franchise.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/486503/west-midlands-rail-franchise.pdf)
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on December 23, 2015, 08:46:05 AM
The public consultation roadshow dates have been announced.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488210/Public_events_for_the_West_Midlands_franchise_consultation.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/488210/Public_events_for_the_West_Midlands_franchise_consultation.pdf)
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 07, 2016, 10:42:39 AM
Shortlist announced

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/04/07/japanese-rail-operator-included-on-shortlist-for-west-midlands-franchise/
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: BK63 YWP on April 07, 2016, 10:46:38 AM
Oooo Japanese partnership with Abellio, would that be the first Japanese company in the rail franchises?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on April 07, 2016, 11:23:25 AM
Pity there's no public sector one! They couldn't do anything worse than the utter crap that is London midland! Chase line trains missing trips out regularly...people got left behind at Walsall yesterday because the 16.12 didn't run from Birmingham and the 16.42 was a ridiculously inadequate two coach set that was dangerously overcrowded.  People pay for season tickets for this?....
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 07, 2016, 12:35:40 PM
Quote from: Bob on April 07, 2016, 11:23:25 AM
Pity there's no public sector one! They couldn't do anything worse than the utter crap that is London midland! Chase line trains missing trips out regularly...people got left behind at Walsall yesterday because the 16.12 didn't run from Birmingham and the 16.42 was a ridiculously inadequate two coach set that was dangerously overcrowded.  People pay for season tickets for this?....

The 16:12 didn't run because moronic passengers attacked the driver assaulting him on his previous journey on another line, somehow I doubt whether whoever was running the service it would have made any difference to that
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Cheese on April 07, 2016, 04:27:54 PM
Quote from: Tony on April 07, 2016, 10:42:39 AM
Shortlist announced

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2016/04/07/japanese-rail-operator-included-on-shortlist-for-west-midlands-franchise/

Having met with two of the three shortlisted bidders yesterday, some very good people working on the bids so reasonably confident it will be better (within the boundaries of available resources) than the current LM franchise.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on April 07, 2016, 06:23:57 PM
Still a pretty poor service with two car units at busy times. There's ben loads of complaints about how bad it is. Even the bloody MP got involved although I suspect that was for publicity.  She loves a good photo shoot. "I must insist electric trains are used once the line is electrified "...Erm yea 1. Why wouldn't they be & 2. What's she gonna do if they aren't lol
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Cheese on April 07, 2016, 06:29:01 PM
Quote from: Bob on April 07, 2016, 06:23:57 PM
Still a pretty poor service with two car units at busy times. There's ben loads of complaints about how bad it is. Even the bloody MP got involved although I suspect that was for publicity.  She loves a good photo shoot. "I must insist electric trains are used once the line is electrified "...Erm yea 1. Why wouldn't they be & 2. What's she gonna do if they aren't lol

Because the unit cascade hasn't worked out? Could well happen, or if Northern haven't got replacements for their 323s (assuming they will be the units). And as has been said time and again, where do LM get spare units from? There aren't any. If there were, they would be using them now...
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 07, 2016, 06:43:38 PM
Quote from: Bob on April 07, 2016, 06:23:57 PM
Still a pretty poor service with two car units at busy times. There's ben loads of complaints about how bad it is. Even the bloody MP got involved although I suspect that was for publicity.  She loves a good photo shoot. "I must insist electric trains are used once the line is electrified "...Erm yea 1. Why wouldn't they be & 2. What's she gonna do if they aren't lol

The two car unit can just about cope as long as the 16:12 runs
Perhaps you might like to suggest where an extra carriage might come from.

Because the electrification is actually ahead of schedule at the moment there is the strong possibility of the wires being live before the extra 323s arrive, so you may find the service is initially a mix of diesel and electric
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: T840MAK on April 07, 2016, 07:32:26 PM
Quote from: Cheese on April 07, 2016, 06:29:01 PM
Because the unit cascade hasn't worked out? Could well happen, or if Northern haven't got replacements for their 323s (assuming they will be the units). And as has been said time and again, where do LM get spare units from? There aren't any. If there were, they would be using them now...

The 323s aren't being released from Northern until 2018 now, which is when the 331s should start entering service.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 07, 2016, 07:35:38 PM
Quote from: T840MAK on April 07, 2016, 07:32:26 PM
The 323s aren't being released from Northern until 2018 now, which is when the 331s should start entering service.

And you cannot use 319s or 350s on the Chase line without platform extensions as neither has selective door opening
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on April 07, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
Something needs to be done. Why can't they get more units?? Have they not got any spares? The interiors of the turbostar are cramped anyway compared with a sprinter
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on April 07, 2016, 09:45:05 PM
Won't the 323s be well over 20 years old???
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Sh4318 on April 07, 2016, 10:19:10 PM
Quote from: Bob on April 07, 2016, 09:31:57 PM
Something needs to be done. Why can't they get more units?? Have they not got any spares? The interiors of the turbostar are cramped anyway compared with a sprinter

They use all available carriages. Increasing the Chase Line capacity would mean taking carriages off Birmingham - Shrewsburys, or Birmingham - Herefords, or even the 170/6 that runs on my Snow Hill line. It's not just LM, the whole rail network has a shortage of DMUs.

Quote from: Bob on April 07, 2016, 09:45:05 PM
Won't the 323s be well over 20 years old???

Yes, but they would've been refreshed before. They're ideal for the services they currently work on, they'll be around for a while yet. Personally I'd welcome the 323s from Northern, they're quality units
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on April 07, 2016, 11:29:17 PM
Aren't Northern or Great Western supposed to be getting rid of the 143s? If so they could be used and I believe they could couple to the existing units used.

Saying that, am sure after a few days on the Nodding Donkeys, you would be begging for the other units back?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on April 07, 2016, 11:43:02 PM
So if nothing can be done what the hell is our vile MP banging on about then? As she obviously can't do Jack S##t  lol
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on April 08, 2016, 12:11:47 AM
Quote from: Bob on April 07, 2016, 11:43:02 PM
So if nothing can be done what the hell is our vile MP banging on about then? As she obviously can't do Jack S##t  lol

Remember the trains used aren't owned by London Midland, but leased by a ROSCO. If a ROSCO has no further trains that can be leased, you have little option but to try and cope with the stock you have. The MP can moan about London Midland , but it really isn't there fault.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Kevin on April 08, 2016, 07:27:35 AM
Only thing they possibly could do as an interim is hire in a loco hauled set of sorts, but that gets expensive as mentioned with the Coventry Arena extras they trialed, plus on stop start services like LM's the whole door thing would slow everything down.

It is kind of infuriating for passengers that seemingly not enough trains were built with the latest orders of Turbostars, or indeed when they built the Voyagers for Virgin, but alas such is economics and at the time I suppose they couldn't really justify spending so much more "just in case".

Will just have to wait for cascades to happen.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 08, 2016, 08:04:36 AM
Quote from: Kevin on April 08, 2016, 07:27:35 AM
Only thing they possibly could do as an interim is hire in a loco hauled set of sorts, but that gets expensive as mentioned with the Coventry Arena extras they trialed, plus on stop start services like LM's the whole door thing would slow everything down.

It is kind of infuriating for passengers that seemingly not enough trains were built with the latest orders of Turbostars, or indeed when they built the Voyagers for Virgin, but alas such is economics and at the time I suppose they couldn't really justify spending so much more "just in case".

Will just have to wait for cascades to happen.

London Midland or successor are also grabbing some 153s that First Great Western are releasing, but again the release of these has been delayed by the late electrification of the Great Western Main Line
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: T840MAK on April 08, 2016, 09:50:12 AM
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on April 07, 2016, 11:29:17 PM
Aren't Northern or Great Western supposed to be getting rid of the 143s? If so they could be used and I believe they could couple to the existing units used.

Saying that, am sure after a few days on the Nodding Donkeys, you would be begging for the other units back?

When / if the 143s get realised out of the Wales & Borders and Great Western franchises (which would be 2019 earliest), they would most likely go for scrap rather than going to LM - they're already 30 years old, and as we Northerners have proved with the 142s and extremely similar 144s, are completely unfit for purpose now.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 08, 2016, 09:53:48 AM
Quote from: T840MAK on April 08, 2016, 09:50:12 AM
When / if the 143s get realised out of the Wales & Borders and Great Western franchises (which would be 2019 earliest), they would most likely go for scrap rather than going to LM - they're already 30 years old, and as we Northerners have proved with the 142s and extremely similar 144s, are completely unfit for purpose now.

142; 143 & 144 units are not allowed into Birmingham New Street
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: T840MAK on April 08, 2016, 09:59:22 AM
Quote from: Tony on April 08, 2016, 09:53:48 AM
142; 143 & 144 units are not allowed into Birmingham New Street

If only they weren't still allowed anywhere else on the network..!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on April 08, 2016, 01:19:11 PM
Quote from: Tony on April 08, 2016, 09:53:48 AM
142; 143 & 144 units are not allowed into Birmingham New Street

@Tony That's a shame, are they out of gauge?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on April 08, 2016, 01:28:32 PM
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on April 08, 2016, 01:19:11 PM
@Tony That's a shame, are they out of gauge?

It's not a shame! Something to do with the risk of derailing on the track layout.

I believe this photo is of the only 143 ever to run into New Street Station
http://wmbusphotos.com/Trains/class143/143001.html
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bryan on April 12, 2016, 01:25:06 PM
The potential franchisees are expected to provide suggestions on improving capacity on the network, even with the limited rolling stock as it stands. This could include reducing the amount of seating and layout thereby allowing more standees, removing some of the toilets on the trains and restricting the carriage of cycles at certain times. 
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Liberator9 on April 12, 2016, 03:58:13 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if when it came to it the 323s have their toilets removed as opposed to fitting a DDA compliant one, in the pursuance of extra seating.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on April 13, 2016, 07:56:08 PM
We may find out more when the Invitation to Tender document is published in July but it is possible that capacity issues could be addressed by either new or cascaded vehicles.  One possible solution for NUCKLE (Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington) is the use of the ex-LU Class 230 units being developed by Vivarail. 

However, the West Midlands and Chiltern Route Study is due to be published by Network Rail in mid-May for consultation.  This details the strategy for growth up to 2043.  The following are included in the strategy for implementation during Control Period 6 (2019-2024)

1.  Train lengthening across the West Midlands with platform lengthening on Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury corridors
2.  CrossCountry train lengthening

Number 2 is interesting as it would probably mean the replacement of Voyagers on long-distance XC trains, possibly with bi-mode AT300s or equivalent.  This would create a cascade with the Voyagers possibly moving to routes such as Nottingham to Cardiff or Portsmouth to Cardiff, releasing shorter DMUs for local services.

One possibility in the strategy in the longer term is the electrification of the Chiltern and Snow Hill lines in the late 2020s.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Dylanbusboy45 on April 13, 2016, 08:01:17 PM
Or CrossCountry trains could be lengthened by using some HSTs displaced by IEPs on Great Western and East Coast and then double up Voyagers so all trains are around 8 coaches. Then some of the voyagers could be used on current 170 routes??
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2016, 08:17:36 PM
Quote from: Roy on April 13, 2016, 07:56:08 PM
We may find out more when the Invitation to Tender document is published in July but it is possible that capacity issues could be addressed by either new or cascaded vehicles.  One possible solution for NUCKLE (Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington) is the use of the ex-LU Class 230 units being developed by Vivarail. 

However, the West Midlands and Chiltern Route Study is due to be published by Network Rail in mid-May for consultation.  This details the strategy for growth up to 2043.  The following are included in the strategy for implementation during Control Period 6 (2019-2024)

1.  Train lengthening across the West Midlands with platform lengthening on Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury corridors
2.  CrossCountry train lengthening

Number 2 is interesting as it would probably mean the replacement of Voyagers on long-distance XC trains, possibly with bi-mode AT300s or equivalent.  This would create a cascade with the Voyagers possibly moving to routes such as Nottingham to Cardiff or Portsmouth to Cardiff, releasing shorter DMUs for local services.

One possibility in the strategy in the longer term is the electrification of the Chiltern and Snow Hill lines in the late 2020s.

Another possibility suggested on no.2 is that, once the MML is mostly electrified (to Derby, i think?) East Midlands Trains (or their successor) gain newer BMUs (Bi-Modes) for the London-the East Midlands & Sheffield services, with the current 222's being cascaded to XC (possibly recoupled as 222's are incompatible with 220/221 units) for lengthening services. Just something that i've seen suggested
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on April 13, 2016, 08:46:24 PM
Quote from: Dylanbusboy45 on April 13, 2016, 08:01:17 PM
Or CrossCountry trains could be lengthened by using some HSTs displaced by IEPs on Great Western and East Coast and then double up Voyagers so all trains are around 8 coaches. Then some of the voyagers could be used on current 170 routes??

Much as I would love to see HSTs taking over all Edinburgh-Plymouth services, it is very unlikely to happen.  A lot of the GW sets are already destined for Scotland, while there are compliance issues with the slam doors on the Mk3 coaches, as well as the non-retention toilets.  I know that Chiltern invested in converting their Mk3s to power operated doors and retention toilets but I cannot see anybody else doing this as Chiltern hit a lot of problems doing the conversions.

In addition, Network Rail are issuing their electrification strategy this summer which will order by date future electrifications.  It is thought that Bromsgrove to Westerleigh Junction and Birmingham to Derby will be high on the list, while Coventry to Didcot is part of the electric spine which is also high on the list and was part of CP6 before the Hendy Report.  If these happen then a lot of the long distance XC network will be under the wires.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: T840MAK on April 13, 2016, 11:07:26 PM
Quote from: Alex on April 13, 2016, 08:17:36 PM
Another possibility suggested on no.2 is that, once the MML is mostly electrified (to Derby, i think?) East Midlands Trains (or their successor) gain newer BMUs (Bi-Modes) for the London-the East Midlands & Sheffield services, with the current 222's being cascaded to XC (possibly recoupled as 222's are incompatible with 220/221 units) for lengthening services. Just something that i've seen suggested

It's already been said elsewhere that XC don't want the 222s when EMT get their bi-modes for the Midland Mainline.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on May 11, 2016, 11:07:46 AM
Quote from: Chris on April 07, 2016, 10:46:38 AM
Oooo Japanese partnership with Abellio, would that be the first Japanese company in the rail franchises?

No.  MTR has been running franchises (or more correctly TfL concessions) since 2007, London Overground, and Crossrail since May 2015.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on May 11, 2016, 11:09:53 AM
Quote from: T840MAK on April 08, 2016, 09:50:12 AM
When / if the 143s get realised out of the Wales & Borders and Great Western franchises (which would be 2019 earliest), they would most likely go for scrap rather than going to LM - they're already 30 years old, and as we Northerners have proved with the 142s and extremely similar 144s, are completely unfit for purpose now.

142s will undoubtedly be going to scrap or preservation on withdrawal, as it's impractical spending money on making them PRM-TSI compliant by 31st December 2019.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Adam 404 on May 11, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: The Real 4778 on May 11, 2016, 11:09:53 AM
142s will undoubtedly be going to scrap or preservation on withdrawal, as it's impractical spending money on making them PRM-TSI compliant by 31st December 2019.
Nothing stopping them being temporary replacements for the Nuneaton to Coventry line though if they were to decide to re-experiment with the Event Services again??? It would also increase Capacity on the line :D
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on May 11, 2016, 04:28:32 PM
Quote from: Adam 404 on May 11, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Nothing stopping them being temporary locomotives

Other than the fact they aren't locomotives, I guess.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: T840MAK on May 11, 2016, 04:58:50 PM
Quote from: Adam 404 on May 11, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Nothing stopping them being temporary replacements for the Nuneaton to Coventry line though if they were to decide to re-experiment with the Event Services again??? It would also increase Capacity on the line :D

The fact that they won't be DDA compliant so won't be able to be used past 31/12/19? No operator will take them off with 6 months maximum left in their life, by the time Northern/Arriva Rail North has disposed of all of them.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 30, 2016, 04:04:09 PM
The Invitation to Tender document for the new franchise has been released today at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549119/west-midland-stakeholder-briefing-document-and-consultation-response.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/549119/west-midland-stakeholder-briefing-document-and-consultation-response.pdf).  Major changes are better evening services on most lines by December 2018 and improved Sunday services on most lines by December 2021.  Pages 46 to 53 show the improvements line by line.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 30, 2016, 05:40:41 PM
Strangely the major weekday improvement, a second hourly Birmingham-Shrewsbury service, wasn't mentioned in the DfT announcement. Although there are two extra trains between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, the service total  only goes up by one, so one will have to replace an existing local.
;
Hidden in the ITT is a requirement for the franchise's proposals to accommodate a non-stop Birmingham-Bushbury Pendolino service and also that they can run two trains per hour down the TV.
;
The applicants have to offer a priced variation to serve Barleston and Wedgewood - if it is unacceptable they will go through the closure procedure. Norton Bridge they are still thinking about.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 30, 2016, 05:49:24 PM
 Yes, there's a diagram on page 23 which shows that one of the all-stations is extended from Wolverhampton to Crewe via Stoke.  It will be interesting to find out whether these will start at Walsall as at present.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 30, 2016, 05:54:43 PM
Quote from: Roy on August 30, 2016, 05:49:24 PM
Yes, there's a diagram on page 23 which shows that one of the all-stations is extended from Wolverhampton to Crewe via Stoke.  It will be interesting to find out whether these will start at Walsall as at present.

That is presumably to allow some Trent Valley services to start/finish at Stafford allowing more 8 car workings
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 30, 2016, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Tony on August 30, 2016, 05:54:43 PM
That is presumably to allow some Trent Valley services to start/finish at Stafford allowing more 8 car workings
This will allow all Euston - Crewe via Stoke services to operate directly from Stafford to Crewe via the WCML.  The problem is capacity and the need for 8-car trains.  As expected, the Stoke people are not happy.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Sh4318 on August 30, 2016, 06:22:09 PM
Quote from: mikestone on August 30, 2016, 05:40:41 PM
Strangely the major weekday improvement, a second hourly Birmingham-Shrewsbury service, wasn't mentioned in the DfT announcement. Although there are two extra trains between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, the service total  only goes up by one, so one will have to replace an existing local.
;
Hidden in the ITT is a requirement for the franchise's proposals to accommodate a non-stop Birmingham-Bushbury Pendolino service and also that they can run two trains per hour down the TV.
;
The applicants have to offer a priced variation to serve Barleston and Wedgewood - if it is unacceptable they will go through the closure procedure. Norton Bridge they are still thinking about.

I assume these will be all stops between Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury, although it isn't stated
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 30, 2016, 06:53:34 PM
Quote from: Sh4318 on August 30, 2016, 06:22:09 PM
I assume these will be all stops between Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury, although it isn't stated

All the document says is that the new service has been specified to call at Wellington, Telford, Shifnal and Codsall as a minimum.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on August 30, 2016, 07:33:11 PM
Quote from: Roy on August 30, 2016, 06:20:23 PM
This will allow all Euston - Crewe via Stoke services to operate directly from Stafford to Crewe via the WCML.  The problem is capacity and the need for 8-car trains.  As expected, the Stoke people are not happy.

Is it me or are there still going to be direct services betweem Birmingham New Street & London Euston as have looked through the document, and can't see it really mentioned?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 30, 2016, 07:52:26 PM
I would guess yes although, as you say, it is not specified in the ITT.  The Birmingham to Northampton line is shown as being part of the West Coast Business Unit.  If they intended to split these services at Northampton, I am guessing that they would have put the Birmingham to Northampton line into the West Midlands Business Unit.  I notice that now the Stafford-Stoke-Crewe services are running from Birmingham (or Walsall?), that line is now in the West Midlands Business Unit.

One other omission seems to be no earlier trains on the Stourbridge line on Sunday mornings.  If this is true, then it needs to be rethought.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 30, 2016, 08:25:05 PM
I couldn't find a Sunday train service requirement for period 3 so that  may cover an earlier start from Stourbridge.
;
There is a requirement for sixteen services between London and Northampton to go through to Birmingham.
;
There doesn't appear to be a requirement for the cross-city to continue as now, the TSR only requires 60 trains from University to serve Aston so they could run to Walsall or beyond instead

Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: D10 on August 30, 2016, 09:04:19 PM
Quote from: Roy on August 30, 2016, 07:52:26 PM

One other omission seems to be no earlier trains on the Stourbridge line on Sunday mornings.  If this is true, then it needs to be rethought.

Don't think this is an omission sadly  >:(

As earlier Sunday trains are mentioned specifically for other lines, and the increased frequency to Stourbridge / Kiddie is mentioned, it seems there will be no earlier trains.

At least there are earlier buses for the stations within the West Midlands County, but a bit of a joke that a town the size of Kidderminster has no public transport provision earlier on a Sunday.

Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Reece on August 31, 2016, 04:24:10 PM
Quote from: D10 on August 30, 2016, 09:04:19 PM
Don't think this is an omission sadly  >:(

As earlier Sunday trains are mentioned specifically for other lines, and the increased frequency to Stourbridge / Kiddie is mentioned, it seems there will be no earlier trains.

At least there are earlier buses for the stations within the West Midlands County, but a bit of a joke that a town the size of Kidderminster has no public transport provision earlier on a Sunday.
Your telling me living Kidderminster is a absolutely nightmare when it comes to public transport no Sunday train before 9:42 is ridiculous and the train in question is usually a 2 car and full and standing by Rowley Regis in the summer. Then there is the poor bus service which Mon-Sat basically stops after 18:30 in the evening which is useless if you work or commute. The only service that runs later out of Kidderminster is the 3.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 31, 2016, 05:16:52 PM
You shouldn't need to worry about overcrowding as the six-train an hour service is specified from Stourbridge.
;
I shall be interested to see how they manage that with regard to traincrew.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: D10 on August 31, 2016, 09:11:18 PM
Quote from: mikestone on August 31, 2016, 05:16:52 PM
You shouldn't need to worry about overcrowding as the six-train an hour service is specified from Stourbridge.
;
I shall be interested to see how they manage that with regard to traincrew.

The daytime trains on a Sunday will of course be far less crowded, but this doesn't solve the problem with the first couple of trains being overcrowded. As mentioned the late start to trains means that to have a day out on Sunday you have to cram into the first few trains of the day.

Reece mentioned the 0942, and the 1014 had the same problem when I caught it last Sunday, it is four carriages but people are standing and it is fit to burst!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: andy41 on August 31, 2016, 10:26:42 PM
Quote from: D10 on August 31, 2016, 09:11:18 PM
The daytime trains on a Sunday will of course be far less crowded, but this doesn't solve the problem with the first couple of trains being overcrowded. As mentioned the late start to trains means that to have a day out on Sunday you have to cram into the first few trains of the day.

Reece mentioned the 0942, and the 1014 had the same problem when I caught it last Sunday, it is four carriages but people are standing and it is fit to burst!

That is mainly due to the fact it is effectively free as hardly any ticket offices or gatelines operate on a Sunday on there. If they had to pay there would be plenty of seats!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on September 01, 2016, 02:55:03 PM
Quote from: andy41 on August 31, 2016, 10:26:42 PM
That is mainly due to the fact it is effectively free as hardly any ticket offices or gatelines operate on a Sunday on there. If they had to pay there would be plenty of seats!

I've read some rubbish in my life but this is one takes the gold medal!  To suggest that the majority of people only travel on Sunday to get a free ride is at best untrue and at worst libellous.  I agree that there are a small proportion of fare evaders on all local lines but they operate seven days a week not just on a Sunday. 

The first train is not only full with passengers but also with their luggage.  That is because a large proportion are trying to get to New Street for an onward long distance journey.  The fact that the first train of the day from the Stourbridge line does not arrive at Snow Hill until 1022 and Moor Street until 1028 means that Stourbridge line passengers miss over 20 onward long distance services from New Street.  In fact, if you are travelling towards Bristol and the West Country, the earliest train you can catch is the 1130 from New Street, and that is unacceptable.

The 1014 train from Kidderminster will always be full even if earlier trains were provided as it arrives in Birmingham just as the shops open, although this also attracts long distance travellers as it is the first train of the day from Lye, Old Hill and Langley Green. 

Quote from: mikestone on August 31, 2016, 05:16:52 PM
You shouldn't need to worry about overcrowding as the six-train an hour service is specified from Stourbridge.
;
I shall be interested to see how they manage that with regard to traincrew.

Your are right Mike.  To provide a Saturday level service on Sundays will need a 7-day working agreement.  Both Central Trains and London Midland have tried and failed to change the agreement from a 6-day agreement with voluntary working on Sundays to a 7-day agreement, and this resulted in work to rules and cancelled Sunday services on two or three occasions over the years.  The current situation with GTR where they are trying to introduce new working practices has caused chaos on the Southern and Gatwick Express services with strikes and staff sickness causing mass cancellations and some highly ****ed-off passengers.  I just hope that we don't find ourselves in the same situation in the Midlands in 2021.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on September 01, 2016, 03:29:07 PM
Quote from: Roy on September 01, 2016, 02:55:03 PM

Your are right Mike.  To provide a Saturday level service on Sundays will need a 7-day working agreement.  Both Central Trains and London Midland have tried and failed to change the agreement from a 6-day agreement with voluntary working on Sundays to a 7-day agreement, and this resulted in work to rules and cancelled Sunday services on two or three occasions over the years.  The current situation with GTR where they are trying to introduce new working practices has caused chaos on the Southern and Gatwick Express services with strikes and staff sickness causing mass cancellations and some highly ****ed-off passengers.  I just hope that we don't find ourselves in the same situation in the Midlands in 2021.

The problem you have is that the drivers in certain respects hold the management to ransom in these situations, it's rather a case of the drivers telling the management to jump and they reply how high.

The government may wish all these things to happen and the train companies might wish it to, but without the cooperation of the drivers you don't stand a chance.


Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: the trainbasher on September 01, 2016, 04:19:40 PM
Yeah but they have the right to take industrial action if they feel that their working rights are being destroyed. Strike action and working to rule sends a message to management.

It is not holding passengers or managers ransom but reminding management that the workers have rights as well
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: andy41 on September 01, 2016, 10:00:39 PM
Quote from: Roy on September 01, 2016, 02:55:03 PM
I've read some rubbish in my life but this is one takes the gold medal!  To suggest that the majority of people only travel on Sunday to get a free ride is at best untrue and at worst libellous.  I agree that there are a small proportion of fare evaders on all local lines but they operate seven days a week not just on a Sunday. 

The first train is not only full with passengers but also with their luggage.  That is because a large proportion are trying to get to New Street for an onward long distance journey.  The fact that the first train of the day from the Stourbridge line does not arrive at Snow Hill until 1022 and Moor Street until 1028 means that Stourbridge line passengers miss over 20 onward long distance services from New Street.  In fact, if you are travelling towards Bristol and the West Country, the earliest train you can catch is the 1130 from New Street, and that is unacceptable.

The 1014 train from Kidderminster will always be full even if earlier trains were provided as it arrives in Birmingham just as the shops open, although this also attracts long distance travellers as it is the first train of the day from Lye, Old Hill and Langley Green. 

Yes of course you're right I'm talking complete rubbish, because I don't work on these trains atall, I've never worked that train on a Sunday ever and consequently I don't have any experience to draw on before making the comment. Oh wait.....?...
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on May 25, 2017, 08:47:07 PM
According to Modern Railways, "it is expected that the winning bid for the next West Midlands franchise will propose serving new routes and introducing new rolling stock".  They speculate that the class 323s will be replaced, but not the 350s.  I wonder if there are any plans to replace the 170s. 

The Times went one further on Monday by publishing a claim that Abellio has been tipped to operate the new franchise "according to industry insiders".  Personally, I'd wait for the official announcement which they say will be slightly delayed due to the General Election.   
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on May 25, 2017, 08:54:26 PM
Quote from: Roy on May 25, 2017, 08:47:07 PM
According to Modern Railways, "it is expected that the winning bid for the next West Midlands franchise will propose serving new routes and introducing new rolling stock".  They speculate that the class 323s will be replaced, but not the 350s.  I wonder if there are any plans to replace the 170s. 

The Times went one further on Monday by publishing a claim that Abellio has been tipped to operate the new franchise "according to industry insiders".  Personally, I'd wait for the official announcement which they say will be slightly delayed due to the General Election.

Alstom have said they offered new EMU's to replace the 323s but it was turned down by both bidders.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on June 02, 2017, 11:44:52 PM
Quote from: Tony on May 25, 2017, 08:54:26 PM
Alstom have said they offered new EMU's to replace the 323s but it was turned down by both bidders.

When faced with an unproven Alstom product in its concept stage or proven EMU platforms from any of Hitachi, Siemens, Stadler, Bombardier or CAF, then I know to whom I'd be saying 'don't call us, we'll call you.' !
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on June 06, 2017, 11:58:16 AM
Rumour has it that the decision is expected by the end of this week.  I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: BK63 YWP on June 06, 2017, 01:37:25 PM
Quote from: The Real 4778 on June 06, 2017, 11:58:16 AM
Rumour has it that the decision is expected by the end of this week.  I'm not holding my breath.

I hope abellio gets it
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on June 06, 2017, 07:57:30 PM
Quote from: The Real 4778 on June 06, 2017, 11:58:16 AM
Rumour has it that the decision is expected by the end of this week.  I'm not holding my breath.

Normally, the announcement is made by the Secretary of State in a statement to Parliament, accompanied by a press release.  Parliament is currently dissolved awaiting the result of the General Election, and we probably won't know who the Secretary of State for Transport is until Friday or Saturday (hopefully not Grayling).  So, unless the Tories are intending to hand out some goodies before Thursday, I wouldn't expect any news this week.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on June 06, 2017, 11:20:47 PM
Quote from: Roy on June 06, 2017, 07:57:30 PM
Normally, the announcement is made by the Secretary of State in a statement to Parliament, accompanied by a press release.  Parliament is currently dissolved awaiting the result of the General Election, and we probably won't know who the Secretary of State for Transport is until Friday or Saturday (hopefully not Grayling).  So, unless the Tories are intending to hand out some goodies before Thursday, I wouldn't expect any news this week.

Ah yes, the power of Purdah!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: midlandred2003 on July 04, 2017, 09:41:47 AM
What has happened about the the franchise that was meant to be announced In June.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on July 04, 2017, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: midlandred2003 on July 04, 2017, 09:41:47 AM
What has happened about the the franchise that was meant to be announced In June.

The announcement was scheduled for the day after the general election, that's what happened to it!

Word on the street is that the decision may be announced this Thursday.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on July 04, 2017, 11:13:05 AM
Quote from: The Real 4778 on July 04, 2017, 10:52:25 AM
The announcement was scheduled for the day after the general election, that's what happened to it!

Word on the street is that the decision may be announced this Thursday.

I'm hearing rumours there could be a third possibility which is another short extension to the existing franchise
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on July 04, 2017, 08:47:25 PM
Quote from: Tony on July 04, 2017, 11:13:05 AM
I'm hearing rumours there could be a third possibility which is another short extension to the existing franchise

Oh no, this process will become never ending
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on July 04, 2017, 09:58:17 PM
The last I heard was for an announcement in July.  The current rumours are that the new franchise should start on 15 October but there have been rumours of a postponement until December 11 (the start of the winter timetable).
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on July 05, 2017, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: Roy on July 04, 2017, 09:58:17 PM
The last I heard was for an announcement in July.  The current rumours are that the new franchise should start on 15 October but there have been rumours of a postponement until December 11 (the start of the winter timetable).

The next franchisee - if it is a new operator - is given a three month mobilisation period.  Whether or not that implies something is anybody's guess!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on July 17, 2017, 06:05:53 PM
As @Winston said in the London Midland thread, they have been given an 8 week extension, with an option of an extra 8 weeks extension available.

https://www.go-ahead.com/en/media/news/2017/london-midland-franchise-extension.html
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on July 20, 2017, 10:29:52 AM
The DfT have published a schedule of rail franchise dates today.  It shows an announcement in August for a start date of 10 December BUT with the new franchise possibly delayed for one or two accounting periods at the Secretary of State's discretion.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/630238/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/630238/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf)

However, the current LM direct award allows for an potential extension from October 2017 up to November 2018, so we'll see how long Grayling can delay things.

Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: BusFan94 on July 28, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
This might sound strange to you but to me it makes sense Why don't Centro or whatever there called these days go to Mr grayling and ask if NX group could run the franchise with The West Midlands area being connecting by Nubs and Network tickets and your NXWM bus pass I would call it NXWM Rail and of course for Services that go further Towards Crewe, Liverpool, London, Northampton you could have a Separte Operator as well as the Branch lines such as saint albans So here is where something else pops into my Head Stagecoach own Eastmidlands Trains could run the long distance services and call them West midlands Trains and at Liverpool have a special ticket or pass to connect you go Stagecoach buses and East Midlands Train Services. Now the Saint Albans branch line could be operated by First or Arriva and call it First Saint Albans or Arriva Trains Hertfordshire
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on July 28, 2017, 07:50:06 PM
Or why not take it into public ownership?!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Kevin on July 28, 2017, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: BusFan94 on July 28, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
This might sound strange to you but to me it makes sense....

No
Just no
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on July 28, 2017, 08:01:00 PM
Quote from: BusFan94 on July 28, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
This might sound strange to you

Very
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on July 28, 2017, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: BusFan94 on July 28, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
This might sound strange to you but to me it makes sense Why don't Centro or whatever there called these days go to Mr grayling and ask if NX group could run the franchise with The West Midlands area being connecting by Nubs and Network tickets and your NXWM bus pass I would call it NXWM Rail and of course for Services that go further Towards Crewe, Liverpool, London, Northampton you could have a Separte Operator as well as the Branch lines such as saint albans So here is where something else pops into my Head Stagecoach own Eastmidlands Trains could run the long distance services and call them West midlands Trains and at Liverpool have a special ticket or pass to connect you go Stagecoach buses and East Midlands Train Services. Now the Saint Albans branch line could be operated by First or Arriva and call it First Saint Albans or Arriva Trains Hertfordshire

My first reaction is, they are trying to simplify the franchises, not make them more complicated.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: YN64AOG on July 30, 2017, 02:11:15 PM
Quote from: BusFan94 on July 28, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
This might sound strange to you but to me it makes sense Why don't Centro or whatever there called these days go to Mr grayling and ask if NX group could run the franchise with The West Midlands area being connecting by Nubs and Network tickets and your NXWM bus pass I would call it NXWM Rail and of course for Services that go further Towards Crewe, Liverpool, London, Northampton you could have a Separte Operator as well as the Branch lines such as saint albans So here is where something else pops into my Head Stagecoach own Eastmidlands Trains could run the long distance services and call them West midlands Trains and at Liverpool have a special ticket or pass to connect you go Stagecoach buses and East Midlands Train Services. Now the Saint Albans branch line could be operated by First or Arriva and call it First Saint Albans or Arriva Trains Hertfordshire

They might call it NXWM rail if National Express wins the contract.  But they're not even bidding for it!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Westy on July 30, 2017, 11:11:17 PM
Hasn't NX already run the WM trains as Central Trains a few years back?

The rail maps appeared on the buses at some point too!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: 2206 on July 30, 2017, 11:18:37 PM
Quote from: Westy on July 30, 2017, 11:11:17 PM
Hasn't NX already run the WM trains as Central Trains a few years back?

The rail maps appeared on the buses at some point too!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Trains
Yes. "Central Trains was a train operating company in the United Kingdom owned by National Express that operated the Central Trains franchise from March 1997 until November 2007."
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 08, 2017, 10:11:29 PM
https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/proposed-rail-upgrades-would-support-gbp-2bn-economy-boost-with-more-trains-and-better-hs2-links#
;
refers to 137 extra vehicles under the new franchise. I can't find anything in the invitation to tender.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on August 09, 2017, 12:28:16 PM
Quote from: mikestone on August 08, 2017, 10:11:29 PM
https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/proposed-rail-upgrades-would-support-gbp-2bn-economy-boost-with-more-trains-and-better-hs2-links#
;
refers to 137 extra vehicles under the new franchise. I can't find anything in the invitation to tender.

No, that wasn't in the ITT.  The quote to which you refer sounds very much as if it's taken from the winning bid.

"Following a 90 day consultation Network Rail and Midlands Connect have committed to bringing in longer trains and longer platforms over the next five years. Work has already started to extend platforms and 137 extra vehicles will be brought into service by 2022 through the new West Midlands Franchise."
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on August 09, 2017, 02:51:53 PM
The ITT is silent on the subject of new trains and I'm not sure what this 'article' is telling us. Most new francises currently being let make provision for new trains, for example Anglia where a completely new fleet is being introduced but in the WM we could be in line for the more of the same with totally inadequate trains for example on the X city line with 3 car units leading to ridiculous over crowding. Time will tell assuming the DfT ever get round to letting the franchise!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Cheese on August 09, 2017, 04:42:11 PM
Quote from: RW on August 09, 2017, 02:51:53 PM
The ITT is silent on the subject of new trains and I'm not sure what this 'article' is telling us. Most new francises currently being let make provision for new trains, for example Anglia where a completely new fleet is being introduced but in the WM we could be in line for the more of the same with totally inadequate trains for example on the X city line with 3 car units leading to ridiculous over crowding. Time will tell assuming the DfT ever get round to letting the franchise!

Expecting an announcement very soon, possibly by the end of this week.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 10, 2017, 07:52:27 AM
It's just been announced.  The winner is ............ Abellio.
Details are at https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-seats-for-rail-passengers-as-nearly-1-billion-is-invested-in-midlands-services (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-seats-for-rail-passengers-as-nearly-1-billion-is-invested-in-midlands-services).

Interestingly, 100 new carriages for Cross City and 80 new carriages for Snow Hill lines. 
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Dylanbusboy45 on August 10, 2017, 08:00:56 AM
"Passengers on London services will benefit from 225 brand new carriages, with all other carriages being completely refurbished."

"New trains will be arriving in the north-west on the Liverpool to Birmingham line, which passes through Crewe and Winsford. These are longer and have more seats for passengers than the existing trains."

"The carriages for the Cross City line will offer metro-style services with increased space to carry more passengers, and wider doors for quicker access."

I wonder if the new Cross city units will be similar to the crossrail 345s currently being built??
Not sure why the 172s need replacing already though and the 350s aren't exactly that old
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 10, 2017, 08:18:49 AM
Quote from: Dylanbusboy45 on August 10, 2017, 08:00:56 AM
"Passengers on London services will benefit from 225 brand new carriages, with all other carriages being completely refurbished."



I wonder if the new Cross city units will be similar to the crossrail 345s currently being built??
Not sure why the 172s need replacing already though and the 350s aren't exactly that old

It doesn't say the 172s will be replaced. For Snow Hill line it says carriages will be fully refurbished supported by 80 new carriages
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Dylanbusboy45 on August 10, 2017, 08:28:01 AM
Quote from: Tony on August 10, 2017, 08:18:49 AM
It doesn't say the 172s will be replaced. For Snow Hill line it says carriages will be fully refurbished supported by 80 new carriages

Yes I understand that now reading it again. With 80 new carriages surely more than just the 153s and 150s are going so possibly the 170s as well?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 10, 2017, 08:30:59 AM
Quote from: Dylanbusboy45 on August 10, 2017, 08:28:01 AM
Yes I understand that now reading it again. With 80 new carriages surely more than just the 153s and 150s are going so possibly the 170s as well?

Interestly for Birmingham - Hereford no mention of new or refurbished stock!
Birmingham to Shrewsbury does say trains fully refurbished, so it looks like 170s are staying
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 10, 2017, 09:29:18 AM
The West Midlands and Chiltern Route Study published last week by Network Rail suggested that 13 additional carriages would be needed for the Snow Hill lines by 2023.  There are currently 69 Class 172 carriages in use, so I would guess that replacing them with 80 new carriages (hopefully with higher capacity per carriage) is the option.  Could this mean that the Class 172s would then be refurbished and cascaded to other lines such as Shrewsbury and Hereford to get rid of the older classes (150, 153, 170)?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on August 10, 2017, 10:19:10 AM
The 150s go off to Northern and the 153s are not PRM-TSI compliant, and unlikely to be made so; thus the 15X fleets won't be around in 2020.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 10, 2017, 10:21:33 AM
The government statement refers to longer trains for Birmingham-Liverpool but doesn't mention it in the benefits by route. On the other hand it does under Birmingham-Crewe.
;
The only thing not required by the ITT seems to be the half-hourly Coventry-Leamington service.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 10, 2017, 10:49:09 AM
Quote from: mikestone on August 10, 2017, 10:21:33 AM
The government statement refers to longer trains for Birmingham-Liverpool but doesn't mention it in the benefits by route. On the other hand it does under Birmingham-Crewe.
;
The only thing not required by the ITT seems to be the half-hourly Coventry-Leamington service.

I am wondering if the longer trains are the 707s which are 5 car
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 10, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
Interesting that nowhere do any of the announcements seem refer to an increase in fleet size. I wonder if the 137 vehicles refered to in the Route Study was what what GOVIA was offering?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on August 10, 2017, 11:49:57 AM
Quote from: mikestone on August 10, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
Interesting that nowhere do any of the announcements seem refer to an increase in fleet size. I wonder if the 137 vehicles referred to in the Route Study was what what GOVIA was offering?

I understand that the 137 was calculated away from the specific franchisee by NR, TfWM and DfT, based on statutorily produced data.

I believe the fleet size will actually increase by 85 vehicles (or possibly slightly more) with 405 stated new and 320 being returned to their leasing companies (Porterbrook having 314 of these).
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Steve3229vp on August 10, 2017, 12:50:45 PM
What about the Camp Hill Line (Moor Street - Hazelwell - Kings Heath) ?
This would benefit people in Kings Heath in a big way !
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on August 10, 2017, 01:12:38 PM
Quote from: Steve3229vp on August 10, 2017, 12:50:45 PM
What about the Camp Hill Line (Moor Street - Hazelwell - Kings Heath) ?
This would benefit people in Kings Heath in a big way !

It's in the Network Rail document for a study, so there is hope.  No mention of it in the winning bid so far as we have seen, although no doubt it can be a priced variation or future option fairly easily.  You're right too, it is long overdue.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on August 10, 2017, 03:35:38 PM
Any mention of the Chase line ?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on August 10, 2017, 04:34:54 PM
Quote from: Bob on August 10, 2017, 03:35:38 PM
Any mention of the Chase line ?

The Birmingham Chase line (Birmingham – Walsall – Cannock – Rugeley) will benefit by:
•electric rolling stock introduced following the completion of the on-going electrification works
•a half-hourly service between Birmingham, Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley Monday to Saturday by December 2018 and on Sundays by May 2021
•earlier and later services between Birmingham and Walsall, and between Birmingham and Rugeley Trent Valley including on a Sunday
•new direct services between Walsall and London during rush hours (with 2 morning services into London and 2 evening peak services returning from London) from December 2018
•a service quality regime to improve the quality of stations, trains and customer service for passengers
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on August 10, 2017, 05:52:50 PM
The ITT only required the combination of existing services rather than any re-introduction of the legally dubious removal of services between Aston and Stechford.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: V89MOA on August 10, 2017, 06:03:03 PM
I appreciate there are positives in there but it sounds like the Cross City is getting a bad deal, basically expect longer trains with more standing space and even less chance of getting a seat than now? Especially once more passengers from Bromsgrove are thrown into the mix. Sounds like the Midland Metro all over again unless I have missed something.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on August 10, 2017, 07:55:59 PM
Doesn't appear to be any mention of the existing LM Birmingham/London route or have I missed something?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: woody38 on August 10, 2017, 08:19:54 PM
Use the Stoke London service via Tamworth a lot quicker than going through Brum, but it looks like it's being axed, the trains always seem full when I have used them.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 10, 2017, 08:23:29 PM
Quote from: RW on August 10, 2017, 07:55:59 PM
Doesn't appear to be any mention of the existing LM Birmingham/London route or have I missed something?

There is, they have just split the benefits list at Northampton
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Cheese on August 11, 2017, 07:36:01 AM
Quote from: woody38 on August 10, 2017, 08:19:54 PM
Use the Stoke London service via Tamworth a lot quicker than going through Brum, but it looks like it's being axed, the trains always seem full when I have used them.

London to Crewe via Trent Valley will continue, but runs direct Stafford to Crewe to allow 8 cars to run all day, Stone, Stoke-on-Trent, Kidsgrove and Alsager to be served by a new Birmingham to Crewe service. Which does mean the gaps at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager in the PM will be filled now, instead of the 8 car not stopping.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: woody38 on August 11, 2017, 09:20:10 PM
Quote from: Cheese on August 11, 2017, 07:36:01 AM
London to Crewe via Trent Valley will continue, but runs direct Stafford to Crewe to allow 8 cars to run all day, Stone, Stoke-on-Trent, Kidsgrove and Alsager to be served by a new Birmingham to Crewe service. Which does mean the gaps at Stone, Kidsgrove and Alsager in the PM will be filled now, instead of the 8 car not stopping.
Cheers Cheese
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on August 14, 2017, 08:48:50 PM
The Stourbridge Line User Group Facebook Group has a report that the new franchise will lose all 150, 153, 170, 319 and 323 vehicles and gain 172/0, 350/4 and 230 (for Marston Vale) as well as the new builds.  The poster is a senior transport official.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/407285492711907 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/407285492711907)
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Cheese on August 14, 2017, 09:36:31 PM
Quote from: Roy on August 14, 2017, 08:48:50 PM
The Stourbridge Line User Group Facebook Group has a report that the new franchise will lose all 150, 153, 170, 319 and 323 vehicles and gain 172/0, 350/4 and 230 (for Marston Vale) as well as the new builds.  The poster is a senior transport official.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/407285492711907 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/407285492711907)

There was a WMR briefing from Abellio today, those were indeed mentioned in the briefing (from the summary I was sent this afternoon), gaining 172/0 from the Gospel Oak - Barking line and 350/4 from TPE were a few things mentioned.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: markcf83 on August 15, 2017, 04:37:18 PM
Quote from: Roy on August 14, 2017, 08:48:50 PM
The Stourbridge Line User Group Facebook Group has a report that the new franchise will lose all 150, 153, 170, 319 and 323 vehicles and gain 172/0, 350/4 and 230 (for Marston Vale) as well as the new builds.  The poster is a senior transport official.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/407285492711907 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/407285492711907)

I don't recall London Midland running any class 319 units.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on August 15, 2017, 04:41:57 PM
Quote from: markcf83 on August 15, 2017, 04:37:18 PM
I don't recall London Midland running any class 319 units.

They're used on the Abbey Line, along with peak hour WCML services. They were cascaded from Thameslink so that the 321s they had could be transferred to ScotRail.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: markcf83 on August 15, 2017, 05:35:18 PM
I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on August 15, 2017, 05:42:34 PM
No 323s for the Chase line then...
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 15, 2017, 06:31:37 PM
Quote from: DJ98 on August 15, 2017, 04:41:57 PM
They're used on the Abbey Line, along with peak hour WCML services. They were cascaded from Thameslink so that the 321s they had could be transferred to ScotRail.

Not quite! Someone at London Midland forgot to renew the lease on the 321s, so Scotrail leased them from the owner. London Midland then had to find something to replace them. 350s currently cannot work the Abbey Line so they had to find something!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 15, 2017, 06:32:18 PM
Quote from: Bob on August 15, 2017, 05:42:34 PM
No 323s for the Chase line then...

No looks like either 350s or brand new units
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on August 15, 2017, 07:00:04 PM
Quote from: Tony on August 15, 2017, 06:31:37 PM
Not quite! Someone at London Midland forgot to renew the lease on the 321s, so Scotrail leased them from the owner. London Midland then had to find something to replace them. 350s currently cannot work the Abbey Line so they had to find something!

Ah, got you. I wasn't far off then!

Quote from: Tony on August 15, 2017, 06:32:18 PM
No looks like either 350s or brand new units

350s would be my bet, they already run to Walsall so those services could be extended to Rugeley. They're really nice trains too, imo.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on August 15, 2017, 07:10:36 PM
And lengthened platforms at most stations beyond walsall then Tony?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on August 15, 2017, 07:11:19 PM
Also are we stuck with diesel till December 2018???
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 15, 2017, 07:17:46 PM
Quote from: Bob on August 15, 2017, 07:10:36 PM
And lengthened platforms at most stations beyond walsall then Tony?

Would have to be if it is the 350s. They do not have selective door opening, so North of Walsall could only call at Landywood and Rugeley Trent Valley Northbound, and then Hednesford Southbound!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Steve3229vp on August 25, 2017, 10:59:36 AM
100 new trains (carriages) for the Cross-City line:

Firstly, does the cross-city line use more than that now ?
Secondly, are these new carriages as well as existing ones are is it a total replacement ?
Thirdly, would I be correct is saying that the "metro" style carriages are like the overground trains in London (seats sideways) ?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on August 25, 2017, 11:45:54 AM
Quote from: Steve3229vp on August 25, 2017, 10:59:36 AM
100 new trains (carriages) for the Cross-City line:

Firstly, does the cross-city line use more than that now ?
Secondly, are these new carriages as well as existing ones are is it a total replacement ?
Thirdly, would I be correct is saying that the "metro" style carriages are like the overground trains in London (seats sideways) ?

There's currently 26 323s in the West Midlands, so 78 carriages and that includes the ones used on other lines, so100 is a large increase
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Kevin on August 25, 2017, 12:56:41 PM
Quote from: Steve3229vp on August 25, 2017, 10:59:36 AM
Thirdly, would I be correct is saying that the "metro" style carriages are like the overground trains in London (seats sideways) ?

I would hope not, travelling in from Lichfield Redditch or Bromsgrove and potentially having to stand most of the way would cause a fair amount of outrage
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Steve3229vp on August 25, 2017, 01:40:05 PM
Quote from: Kevin on August 25, 2017, 12:56:41 PM
I would hope not, travelling in from Lichfield Redditch or Bromsgrove and potentially having to stand most of the way would cause a fair amount of outrage
I wouldn't mind it because I and many others don't like travelling backwards, the seats facing the forward way of travel generally fill up first anyway.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: V89MOA on August 25, 2017, 02:23:38 PM
Quote from: Kevin on August 25, 2017, 12:56:41 PM
I would hope not, travelling in from Lichfield Redditch or Bromsgrove and potentially having to stand most of the way would cause a fair amount of outrage
I agree, also a lot of people use the trains to get to the Q.E. Hospital, who for medical reasons would struggle to stand. If 350s currently seat less than 323s, I can see "Metro style trains" providing even less seats for commuters. I don't see why they won't just bring in the rest of the 323s like Govia wanted to, they are the best trains for the job!
Another thought occurs.... Will the new units have a first class section, isolating even more seats?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on September 05, 2017, 07:19:35 AM
According to a contact at TfWM the plan for the Chase Line is platform extensions to four car and class 350s
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on September 05, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
Quote from: Tony on September 05, 2017, 07:19:35 AM
According to a contact at TfWM the plan for the Chase Line is platform extensions to four car and class 350s

If the 323's end up going, do you think the Wolves - Birmingham - Walsall stoppers could be extended, or maybe revert back to Wolves - Birmingham - Coventry, with Birmingham - Walsall stoppers being extended to Rugeley?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on September 05, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
Quote from: DJ98 on September 05, 2017, 12:42:35 PM
If the 323's end up going, do you think the Wolves - Birmingham - Walsall stoppers could be extended, or maybe revert back to Wolves - Birmingham - Coventry, with Birmingham - Walsall stoppers being extended to Rugeley?

Wolves Birmingham is only two per hours, Birmingham-Walsall is four, so no scope for more extensions other than swapping them off the Walsall terminators onto the Rugeleys
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on September 05, 2017, 07:12:40 PM
My understanding was one of the existing Wolverhampton line paths would be taken by the Crewe via Stoke service and the one additional path they could have would be the new Salop.
However it has since been stated that the Stoke service will continue to Euston, so it does seem there is some change planned to the existing cross-Birmingham linkages.
The alternative of one of the Salops  becoming all stations would clearly be bonkers.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on September 05, 2017, 07:16:40 PM
Quote from: mikestone on September 05, 2017, 07:12:40 PM
My understanding was one of the existing Wolverhampton line paths would be taken by the Crewe via Stoke service and the one additional path they could have would be the new Salop.
However it has since been stated that the Stoke service will continue to Euston, so it does seem there is some change planned to the existing cross-Birmingham linkages.
The alternative of one of the Salops  becoming all stations would clearly be bonkers.

The other possibility is the Rugeleys continue Stafford, Stoke & Crewe which is a possibility with 350s. There are rumours of the new franchise asking for an extension of Crewe terminators to Manchester Airport.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on September 05, 2017, 07:35:29 PM
350s for the chase line then...nice
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on September 06, 2017, 05:13:10 AM
Quote from: Tony on September 05, 2017, 07:16:40 PM
The other possibility is the Rugeleys continue Stafford, Stoke & Crewe which is a possibility with 350s. There are rumours of the new franchise asking for an extension of Crewe terminators to Manchester Airport.
Are you suggesting extended from Rugeley - if so I believe the statement was that they would be via Wolverhampton IF I recall correctly.



Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on September 06, 2017, 07:05:01 AM
Quote from: mikestone on September 06, 2017, 05:13:10 AM
Are you suggesting extended from Rugeley - if so I believe the statement was that they would be via Wolverhampton IF I recall correctly.

You do recall correctly, but that was a London Midland Statement, the same as the Crewe London trains avoiding Stoke, so we will have to wait to see what West Midlands Trains have in their ideas. Extending the Rugeleys was just a personal thought
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Westy on September 06, 2017, 07:14:25 PM
Any news on the possibility of Liverpool services from Walsall yet?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on September 07, 2017, 09:33:49 AM
I think it would have been the franchise headline if they did plan it, but I do not believe there is any chance of NR agreeing anything between the Cannock line and Stafford until  HS2 opens.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on September 14, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
West Midlands Trains (Abellio) have a number of proposals for service improvements above and beyond the franchise agreement.  They were reported to a meeting of the Combined Authority last week.  The report is available on the WMCA website at https://governance.wmca.org.uk/documents/s603/TDC%20Franchise%20Award%20Report%204%20September%202017%20Final%20v2.pdf (https://governance.wmca.org.uk/documents/s603/TDC%20Franchise%20Award%20Report%204%20September%202017%20Final%20v2.pdf) but the relevant paragraphs are as follows :-

2.8 At a briefing session on 14 August, WMT revealed that over and above the base requirements specified by DfT, WMT is looking to introduce a wider package of service improvements from December 2018 onwards. This includes restructuring the timetable across Birmingham New Street to create new through journey opportunities. This will also create a number of new long-distance through services to London from a number of stations in the West Midlands. This is likely to include an hourly service between Walsall and London. WMT is also looking at operating significantly earlier and later services to and from Birmingham International to cater for the needs of airport passengers and staff. The exact details will be developed as part of the timetable development process.

2.9 WMT will also be actively developing proposals for a number of new services within the WMR area including:
New services on the Walsall to Wolverhampton Line serving new stations at Willenhall and Darlaston
New service to Brierley Hill as an extension of Birmingham - Stourbridge Junction services
New service on the Camp Hill Line serving stations at Moseley, Kings Heath and Hazelwell
New service to West Midlands Safari Park as an extension of Birmingham - Kidderminster services which will operate along the Severn Valley Railway

2.10 The delivery of these new services have not been explicitly contracted within the new franchise and are subject to feasibility studies being undertaken and support from WMCA/TfWM as required.
 
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Isle of Stroma on September 14, 2017, 04:43:24 PM
Quote from: Roy on September 14, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
New service to West Midlands Safari Park as an extension of Birmingham - Kidderminster services which will operate along the Severn Valley Railway

Silly season's here again then. Money can't be found to fund a sunday bus service twixt Kidderminster & Bewdley via the WMSP, but there's cash for a feasibility study into this folly?

Why not go the whole hog & fund a new chord at Bewdley South, demolish a housing estate at Burlish & reinstate the rail link to the other 'tourist attraction' in the area at Stourport-on-the-Sea-ish ?



Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: D10 on September 14, 2017, 08:44:26 PM
Quote from: dave47549 (no longer NEL111P) on September 14, 2017, 04:43:24 PM
Silly season's here again then. Money can't be found to fund a sunday bus service twixt Kidderminster & Bewdley via the WMSP, but there's cash for a feasibility study into this folly?


Couldn't agree more, how many folks would use this to get to the park, the railway line is a long walk to the main entrance and amusements, or are they expecting the Safari Park to run a shuttle bus service to the new station? And bear in mind this is a single track line which is busy at times such as Bank Hols and gala days, how will extra trains fit in then?

No doubt this is Worcestershire CC's contribution to the franchise whilst totally ignoring local bus services, which the Councils own surveys of the local public say need improving!  >:(
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on October 17, 2017, 08:19:33 AM
Details of new train orders for the new franchise have appeared online. Appears orders placed with Bombadier for Aventra EMU's and CAF for Civity DMU's.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on October 17, 2017, 08:42:19 AM
Quote from: RW on October 17, 2017, 08:19:33 AM
Details of new train orders for the new franchise have appeared online. Appears orders placed with Bombadier for Aventra EMU's and CAF for Civity DMU's.

Here's a link

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/bombardier-and-caf-win-west-midlands-train-contracts.html
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: BK63 YWP on October 17, 2017, 10:16:26 AM
Do you think that the CAF DMUs will be made to work with the current turbostars. It looks like the Coventry to Nuneaton and Kenilworth will be getting the ex London Overground 172s to operate that line

Also with probably the biggest investment into the British Rail Industry happen across the new franchises, Do you think this will mark the end for the early sprinters and pavers by 2021?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on October 17, 2017, 10:27:22 AM
Quote from: Tony on October 17, 2017, 08:42:19 AM
Here's a link

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/bombardier-and-caf-win-west-midlands-train-contracts.html

Thanks Tony.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 17, 2017, 08:21:24 PM
Quote from: Chris on October 17, 2017, 10:16:26 AM
Do you think that the CAF DMUs will be made to work with the current turbostars. It looks like the Coventry to Nuneaton and Kenilworth will be getting the ex London Overground 172s to operate that line

Also with probably the biggest investment into the British Rail Industry happen across the new franchises, Do you think this will mark the end for the early sprinters and pavers by 2021?

I'm not sure if they'd need to, as the only other DMUs would be 172s, the People Mover and possible 230s iirc, and I can't ever recall seeing a 172 working with a 170. It wouldn't be a bad thing if they are compatible though, just in case.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on October 17, 2017, 08:50:09 PM
Quote from: DJ98 on October 17, 2017, 08:21:24 PM
I'm not sure if they'd need to, as the only other DMUs would be 172s, the People Mover and possible 230s iirc, and I can't ever recall seeing a 172 working with a 170. It wouldn't be a bad thing if they are compatible though, just in case.

All current LM DMUs are compatable including 172s & 170s. 153s actually work worth both regularly
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on October 17, 2017, 08:57:35 PM
Wonder if we'll still have a winter of misery overcrowding and cancellations on the Chase line Tony?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on October 19, 2017, 08:00:09 PM
Have some reservations regarding the description of the Cross City line as a 'Metro service' in the context of the 3 car Bombardier EMU's. Suggestion is that it will create more capacity by increasing standing numbers by using a transverse seating layout. All well and good at peak times when increased capacity is needed but at off peak times the service is heavily used by older customers  who need appropriate seating. Can see trouble ahead if older persons are left standing for any sort of distance due to a lack of available seats. Hope the new operators are sensible on this issue.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on October 19, 2017, 08:13:09 PM
Quote from: RW on October 19, 2017, 08:00:09 PM
Have some reservations regarding the description of the Cross City line as a 'Metro service' in the context of the 3 car Bombardier EMU's. Suggestion is that it will create more capacity by increasing standing numbers by using a transverse seating layout. All well and good at peak times when increased capacity is needed but at off peak times the service is heavily used by older customers  who need appropriate seating. Can see trouble ahead if older persons are left standing for any sort of distance due to a lack of available seats. Hope the new operators are sensible on this issue.

There will be more seats off peak though as they intend to run all services as 6 cars
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on October 19, 2017, 10:41:15 PM
Quote from: Tony on October 19, 2017, 08:13:09 PM
There will be more seats off peak though as they intend to run all services as 6 cars
That's good but in that case why only 3 car units?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 19, 2017, 10:46:04 PM
Quote from: RW on October 19, 2017, 10:41:15 PM
That's good but in that case why only 3 car units?

Could be for greater flexibility in 20 or so years time, as it'll likely be easier to cascade them if they are 3 car units, rather than 6.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Kevin on October 20, 2017, 08:02:13 AM
Quote from: RW on October 19, 2017, 10:41:15 PM
That's good but in that case why only 3 car units?

So the guards still have an excuse to not check tickets?
(going on the assumption there's no corridor connection, likely wrong)
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on October 20, 2017, 08:07:41 AM
Quote from: Kevin on October 20, 2017, 08:02:13 AM
So the guards still have an excuse to not check tickets?
(going on the assumption there's no corridor connection, likely wrong)

The CGI of the units show a gangway
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: RW on October 23, 2017, 03:50:58 PM
I seem to recall that the new franchise stated that it will be building a new depot/stabling point at Duddeston. Will that be on the site of the former and long gone coach sidings?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on October 23, 2017, 03:55:12 PM
Quote from: RW on October 23, 2017, 03:50:58 PM
I seem to recall that the new franchise stated that it will be building a new depot/stabling point at Duddeston. Will that be on the site of the former and long gone coach sidings?

If it goes ahead, it is one of a couple of sites being looked at, it will be on the site of the old wagon works
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bus1237 on October 27, 2017, 02:16:55 PM
New livery pictures released:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/business/2017/10/27/new-names-for-london-midland-services/
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: markcf83 on October 27, 2017, 04:43:42 PM
The new liveries don't look too bad....provided they are kept clean most days.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 27, 2017, 04:52:52 PM
Quote from: markcf83 on October 27, 2017, 04:43:42 PM
The new liveries don't look too bad....provided they are kept clean most days.

They do look a bit awkward without the full yellow fronts though, although I guess that's because I'm used to the ones with them. I'm sure they'll grow on me with time. One thing I'm glad for is the window surrounds, just take one look at the new Pendolino livery and you'll certainly feel the same.  ;)
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: tank90 on October 27, 2017, 06:14:40 PM
It would have been nice to have seen the West Midland Railway in Midland Railway Red with the light grey and gold doors as I think the Purple and Orange don't look right.

As for the new LWNR colours it looks like all the UK operators can think of is Green, Grey and Blue(SWR). I would have liked to have seen Black Cabs with red Lining and then for the rest of the Carriage to be in the old LNWR coaching stock livery with gold doors again. Of course due the Black a bit more yellow would be needed at the front but I'm sure that would have worked.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bus1237 on October 27, 2017, 08:10:50 PM
The yellow front door and the orange do not look good together at all...
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on October 29, 2017, 08:52:36 PM
Still think train fronts should be all yellow!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 29, 2017, 09:19:57 PM
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 29, 2017, 08:52:36 PM
Still think train fronts should be all yellow!

I had a go at making it full yellow like the London Midland ones, looks much better imo. You've probably seen it already though if you've seen the thread over on RailUK forums.

(https://i.imgur.com/94tWwrb.jpg)
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Stuharris 6360 on October 29, 2017, 09:25:18 PM
@DJ98 It looks very good and much better from a safety prespective. For people working on the track, the more yellow the better as it is easier to spot than duller colours.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 29, 2017, 09:27:53 PM
Quote from: Stuharris 6360 on October 29, 2017, 09:25:18 PM
@DJ98 It looks very good and much better from a safety prespective. For people working on the track, the more yellow the better as it is easier to spot than duller colours.

Yeah, that too, I just prefer it from a design standpoint. Either way though, you really should put safety over looks. Even if having less is still considered safe, I'd still rather have something even safer.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on October 29, 2017, 10:12:20 PM
Quote from: DJ98 on October 29, 2017, 09:27:53 PM
Yeah, that too, I just prefer it from a design standpoint. Either way though, you really should put safety over looks. Even if having less is still considered safe, I'd still rather have something even safer.

It's not safer now though.  Look at any modern train at a distance and you will see the headlight a long time before even a full yellow front
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 29, 2017, 10:34:40 PM
Quote from: Tony on October 29, 2017, 10:12:20 PM
It's not safer now though.  Look at any modern train at a distance and you will see the headlight a long time before even a full yellow front

I know, but having a highly visible paint job *and* a high powered light is going to be the best option. There could be an issue with the lights or something similar, so it'd be harder to spot without the paint on there.

Even ignoring the safety aspect, it just looks nicer with a full yellow front.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: andyr on October 29, 2017, 11:54:32 PM
if a problem with the headlight the  the train would be withdrawn from service till rectified the same as a bus....
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: DJ on October 30, 2017, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: andyr on October 29, 2017, 11:54:32 PM
if a problem with the headlight the  the train would be withdrawn from service till rectified the same as a bus....

Yes, I know, but problems can happen while at speed, and it can take a short while for a 110 mph train to stop, during that time it'll be beneficial to have the yellow front end.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: The Real 4778 on October 30, 2017, 01:32:46 PM
Quote from: Tony on October 23, 2017, 03:55:12 PM
If it goes ahead, it is one of a couple of sites being looked at, it will be on the site of the old wagon works

Indeed, the foundations of the carriage servicing shed are long since built over!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on November 07, 2017, 10:47:48 AM
According to correspondence on the ORR website the Coventry-Leamington service will be a cl.172.
;
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/25811/london-midland-reply-chiltern-2017-10-06.pdf
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on November 07, 2017, 11:26:13 AM
Quote from: mikestone on November 07, 2017, 10:47:48 AM
According to correspondence on the ORR website the Coventry-Leamington service will be a cl.172.
;
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/25811/london-midland-reply-chiltern-2017-10-06.pdf

There is on big benefit in using the 172, that is the Leamington based drivers are already Traction Trained on 172s, but are not Traction Trained on 153s.

The one thing that might cause a problem though is 172s are not yet cleared for the Coventry to Leamington line, so Network rail will need to get a move on with that one!
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on November 07, 2017, 06:25:57 PM
Presumably no LM crews sign the route either, but the "joint managing director" of Warwickshire CC says Mr Grayling has told her everything is hunky-dory. Of course it may be on Sunday, but will it on Monday?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on November 07, 2017, 06:32:21 PM
Quote from: mikestone on November 07, 2017, 06:25:57 PM
Presumably no LM crews sign the route either, but the "joint managing director" of Warwickshire CC says Mr Grayling has told her everything is hunky-dory. Of course it may be on Sunday, but will it on Monday?

about two days route learning for each driver due to the reversing procedures at both ends. It's not just into the platform, change ends. Leamington (LM) depot is probably the smallest in the company, so at least not many to do.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: D10 on November 07, 2017, 09:07:21 PM
Quote from: mikestone on November 07, 2017, 10:47:48 AM
According to correspondence on the ORR website the Coventry-Leamington service will be a cl.172.
;
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/25811/london-midland-reply-chiltern-2017-10-06.pdf

Did I hear somewhere that the London Overground 172s are due to be transferred up to the Midlands from the Gospel Oak to Barking line, partly because of the extra units needed including at Kenilworth?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Roy on November 07, 2017, 09:37:46 PM
Quote from: D10 on November 07, 2017, 09:07:21 PM
Did I hear somewhere that the London Overground 172s are due to be transferred up to the Midlands from the Gospel Oak to Barking line, partly because of the extra units needed including at Kenilworth?

Yes, the Class 172/0s are due to be transferred in December 2018.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on November 08, 2017, 11:02:20 AM
A number of trains, particularly on Sunday afternoon are booked to cross at Kenilworth, previously not permitted in the train planning rules.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on November 30, 2017, 11:15:37 PM
Kenilworth train services now shown cancelled up to 15 December, but with driver trainers running M-Th.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Kevin on December 01, 2017, 07:29:17 AM
Quote from: mikestone on November 30, 2017, 11:15:37 PM
Kenilworth train services now shown cancelled up to 15 December, but with driver trainers running M-Th.

What spare units have they magically found to run these services then?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on December 01, 2017, 08:03:32 AM
Quote from: Kevin on December 01, 2017, 07:29:17 AM
What spare units have they magically found to run these services then?

They won't be starting until at least February
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Tony on December 01, 2017, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: Kevin on December 01, 2017, 07:29:17 AM
What spare units have they magically found to run these services then?

One of the ways they have found a 153 is by diagrammed the 150s for 100% availability (except on Mondays when one is having an inspection).

By putting 2 x 150s on the Bedford Bletchley line and having the third one on the Worcester Digram from Tuesday Lunchtime to Friday that has freed a 153. On a Monday and Tuesday morining the Worcester duty is a class 170 as one less of those is in for inspection then.
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Bob on December 01, 2017, 04:32:41 PM
Ive bought a ticket fir 20th Jan 18.46 Euston to Stafford, it says LM on it...it will still be valid with the new firm? And they will still run that journey?
Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: Ian Hardy on December 01, 2017, 05:05:01 PM
Yes it will be and if you have been able to book yes the train should run.

Title: Re: The next West Midlands franchise
Post by: mikestone on December 04, 2017, 04:50:29 PM
https://leamingtonobserver.co.uk/news/kenilworth-railway-station-opening-delayed-until-february/